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Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor
Jan 26 2015, 10:48am
Post #1 of 21
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A thread to appreciate the Thorin/Bilbo confrontation scene
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Firstly, I have to say that the entire buildup to the battle was pure gold in my opinion, and was easily on an equal level as most of The Lord of the Rings. But one scene stole the film for me, and it was undoubtedly one of the most important moments aside from the (spoilers) deaths.
I had imagined Thorin in the book to be even more berserk than he was in the film version of this scene, but it was played in such a way that it only increased the viewer's sympathy for the character. Frankly, Armitage steals this film from start to finish-the internal struggle evident in his performance is just astonishing. The look on his face when Bilbo says "I gave it to them" suggests his rising anger, but when he turns to face the hobbit his expression is one of utter disbelief-you can see that at this stage he truly trusted Bilbo alone of all the company, and for a moment you see just how genuinely hurt he is by his friend's betrayal. Then there is that hint of mockery as he scoffs at the notion of Bilbo having any claim upon the treasure-you can sense the brooding anger steadily rising, almost like wheels turning over in his mind that are rotating faster and faster.
The second time he mocks after losing his temper ("but what, thief?") any hint of amusement is completely gone (I suppose there is an amusing quality about the normally timid Bilbo as he tries to stand up to someone unable to see reason). But you can see that Bilbo's angry retort is the catalyst that causes Thorin to lose control of himself completely. The expressions of the other Dwarves when Thorin tries to kill Bilbo are entirely believable-though I would have liked to have seen them make more of an effort to restrain Thorin, especially from Balin (but I suppose their complete disbelief in the face of what their leader has become is equally telling).
And to top off an absolutely perfect scene...Gandalf's bellowing intervention, reminiscent of his terrifying outburst at Bilbo in The Fellowship of the Ring. Pure gold!
How did you interpret this scene, and did it live up to your expectations?
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."-Gandalf
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jan 26 2015, 11:38am
Post #2 of 21
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With the Rapid Speed of thingies
Bom jus' sat there "Slack Jawed"
Mouth agape, &
Breathing really hard...
AS they say...
Bewitched,
Bothered &
Bewildered..
That scene was SSOoo..Bright
SSOooo...precious to SEE!
R-A...
what, great observations
what, great writing...
bom
BOWS deeply to you..
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Jan 26 2015, 11:53am
Post #3 of 21
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The scene is beyond words good
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It is fantastic. What I see in Thorin's face is a look of tremendous hurt (brilliantly played by RA), followed by rage at having been so let down. And Gandalf's bellow is amazing – I love it when he uses that voice!
Pure gold, as you say, like several scenes involving RA in these films. I just love the way the actor can almost speak with his eyes, as if he truly lives the part…
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jan 26 2015, 12:01pm
Post #4 of 21
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And yes, I agree. The scene is pure gold - (in the best possible sense!). Beautifully written, beautifully performed by two of the strongest actors in the whole six-film series, every emotional beat spot-on. Richard Armitage really lives the part.
The scene certainly lived up to my expectations - I don't think anyone could have done it better.
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jan 26 2015, 12:20pm
Post #5 of 21
(840 views)
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...With all this TALK about "Action Jackson"
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many people forget He is
Also
an
Actor's Director!...TOO
AIN'T it GREAT
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Ilmatar
Rohan
Jan 26 2015, 1:27pm
Post #6 of 21
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I think the scene was masterfully played by both actors. Bilbo, between a rock and a hard place, had come to a desperate decision and did the only thing possible in his power that he thought might prevent a war and keep his friends alive. He must have known how Thorin would react, but the fierceness of Thorin's response probably shocked him - I don't think it occurred to him that he might be thrown down the ramparts. Thorin, who had just a moment earlier shown his trust was for Bilbo alone ("One of them has taken it!") moved from frozen disbelief to utter, brokenhearted disappointment, and then to rage. And like Glorfindela said, and like I have said somewhere else, it's amazing to see what variety and depth of emotions RA can convey with his eyes alone!
This scene was especially hard after having seen the lucid Thorin, and Thorin & Bilbo's close friendship, in the acorn scene.
The confrontation exceeded my expectations, and while feeling empathy for both opponents it was painful to watch. If tables had been turned and it was Bilbo who fell in the battle, Thorin's guilt (post- dargon sickness) would have been overwhelming.
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Old Toby
Grey Havens
Jan 26 2015, 6:28pm
Post #8 of 21
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Yes a terrific scene to be sure
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and one, I think, that really displays RA's ability to convey so much in so little time. After Bilbo's announcement that he gave them the Arkenstone to when Thorin tries to toss Bilbo over the edge, we see Thorin go from fury to bitterness to painful betrayal and disappointment to killing rage all within a few short lines of dialog. And all with a face hampered by prosthetics. Yeah, pretty good acting I'd say.
"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)
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Nolane
Bree
Jan 26 2015, 7:47pm
Post #9 of 21
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Agreed. Fantastic scene, brilliantly acted...
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Kim
Valinor
Jan 26 2015, 8:47pm
Post #10 of 21
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Really fantastic scene, with stellar performances by both Martin and Richard. The things that really stood out for me were when Thorin turned towards Bilbo, you could see the tears in his eyes, and when Bilbo accused him of not trusting his kin, you could see the flicker in Thorin's eyes and face acknowledging that with just the teensiest bit of doubt. But then, when Thorin said "but what, thief?" he sounded just like Smaug again. Comparing it to just the book, it was much more subtle, yet effective. But then again, based on what we'd already seen in the movies leading up to this moment, I had every confidence we would see something amazing.
#OneLastTime
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PrincessBlade
Registered User
Jan 26 2015, 9:24pm
Post #11 of 21
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Every time I saw this film, this scene + Thorin's death scene were very difficult and heartbreaking to watch. Richard and Martin did such an amazing job. :)
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Jan 26 2015, 9:33pm
Post #12 of 21
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One thing the that makes me appreciate the scene even more is the way it feels like a natural followup to the final scene of AUJ. I've always enjoyed that scene, even though it does feel a little tacked on to create some closure for AUJ (which is what happened of course). The parallels between these two scenes helps justify its inclusion even more in my opinion.
AUJ:
-Bilbo does something to save Thorin's life.
-Thorin is shocked and seems upset with Bilbo.
-When he sees Bilbo, he first reactions by saying "You!"
-It turns out Thorin is actually extremely grateful, and he hugs Bilbo.
BotFA:
-Bilbo does something to save Thorin's life.
-Thorin is shocked.
-The first thing Thorin says is "You...?"
-Thorin grabs Bilbo to throw him from the ramparts.
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Jan 27 2015, 6:51pm
Post #13 of 21
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of parallels: in BotFA, Thorin was (eventually) extremely grateful to Bilbo and would have hugged him again, if he hadn't been dying! Just took him awhile. 
Yes, the end of AUJ is a very important stepping-stone to the very personal friendship and trust Thorin has for Bilbo in BotFA.
When I read The Hobbit, I get the feeling that Thorin's repentance and farewell speech is not so much to Bilbo himself, but to Bilbo as a representative of certain values (those of the kindly West). PJ is not telling that story, exactly--his is personal, and along the journey to the mountain that relationship is built so that Bilbo's secret parlay with the Arkenstone is not only a breech of loyalty, but a very personal betrayal, by the one person Thorin still trusts wholeheartedly.
What others have said in praise of the confrontation scene I agree with, and I would also add that I appreciated how the movie made me feel not only Thorin's shock, pain, and rising rage at Bilbo's betrayal, but then the added wound of finding that none of his company--even his own nephew--would carry out his wish to throw Bilbo over the wall, so that he has to do it himself. It's very strange and moving to find yourself as a viewer so much of two minds, both empathizing with a would-be murderer and yet so anxious for his intended victim.
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jan 27 2015, 8:43pm
Post #14 of 21
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I am glad you posted this scene thread. I think it is the culmination of a complex friendship, one presented in a way a bit different than the text but in a cardinal sense the same tale. I note this approach used in other ways: the golden cup as the final straw for alerting Smaug is used in modifed way, as well as the Black Arrow use. So same, but different...like a surprise for even those who know the story. Gandalf knew they would rely on Bilbo eventually; and the way this is all filmed it shows the progression and the intensity I think of that reliance.
The rescue of Bilbo in the mountain pass by Thorin is a first step; Thorin grudgingly does his duty, risking himself to pluck Bilbo from falling: but ONLY as a duty. He has no regard for Bilbo at all.
After they arrive outside the Goblin tunnels and Bilbo reappears, Thorin is surprised and perhaps has a bit of puzzled respect for this Hobbit. He is also clearly touched by Bilbo's words there. Then Bilbo aids Thorin after Thorin falls to Azog - and as hopeless and rather suicidal that gesture was, it earns Thorin's gratitude and respect (maybe partially BECAUSE it is so madly brave an act. I think that appeals to Dwarven sensibilities).
Bilbo then, in DoS, saves the entire Company from the spiders AND frees them from the Elvenking's jails: but by then that is something Thorin had faith in, and even gambled on. He insulted Thranduil and threw away the 'only hope' of 'a deal' because his real hope was Bilbo. Then that shot of Thorin holding back the barrels in the river after they launched, purposely waiting for Bilbo, shows how the dynamic has changed completely.
In DoS EE, Bilbo's words seem to sway the tide to Laketown aiding the Dwarves. Once again, he comes through for Thorin.
I think the scene with the Key is a critical one: I am convinced Thorin never 'gave up' and walked away. I think, realizing they, the Dwarves, could not solve the puzzle in time, he gambles yet again on Bilbo. He leaves the key and the map to him and departs, with very subtle, considering looks done by RA ...but as we see, Thorin doesn't go far. We never even see the Dwarves on the stairs when Bilbo looks for them: I think Thorin has them stay right below the downward curve, to quietly wait on his latest gamble, though the director's illusion is that they have already left. I think instead they wait: for Bilbo to come through again, to solve the riddle of the Key. Which he does - and I note when Thorin reappears so quickly and knows that Bilbo has figured it out, there is no surprise on his face, as one would expect of he just happened to return to Bilbo shouting about it all out: instead, its a knowing look, of dawning pride I would almost say. I think that look when he smiles at Bilbo is joy that his guess was right: Bilbo would come through yet again, as he has been doing for Thorin for a long time now. Just as Gandalf planned.
So that confrontation scene reflects SUCH a blow to Thorin. In his dragon-sickness-induced paranoia he takes everything as an act of aggression, and here the person who has meant so much and done so much for him - now seen as a betrayer! And now that Thorin has become accustomed to him, relied upon him and maybe feels that he needs him since Bilbo has more than proven his worth...interesting expression of that very sickness which implies greed: how can he think about giving away, of losing someone of such value? And when that person has STOLEN and given away what means the most (in that moment) to Thorin?
I think the acting was amazing; and that only the two Heirs step up to interfere is almost like this is a visceral, intimate family moment of disfunction. Well done by all.
And then, as you say, there is Gandalf aware of it all and intervening at just the right time to save both Bilbo's life and - in a way - Thorin's soul. Imagine Thorin's grief had he killed Bilbo and then recovered his wits! It may have been the end of all of them, and the loss of Erebor if the Company never rallied because Thorin was a broken Dwarf.
(This post was edited by Brethil on Jan 27 2015, 8:46pm)
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Kim
Valinor
Jan 27 2015, 9:56pm
Post #15 of 21
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I never thought of the Key scene that way, that is interesting to ponder. I like how you've tied it all together in terms of how their relationship developed, and Thorin's growing faith in Bilbo, up until the scene at the ramparts.
#OneLastTime
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Ilmatar
Rohan
Jan 27 2015, 10:42pm
Post #16 of 21
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Thank you for the step-by-step analysis! It all makes even more sense now that you wrote it open so well.
(For some reason, reading this made me want to re-watch all three films RIGHT NOW...  )
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jan 28 2015, 5:38am
Post #17 of 21
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Screencap wise, this is the 'considering' look:
And here is that sort of slow, warm pride: reflected in Balin's face too, which makes sense as Balin would either be in on the idea of letting Bilbo try to solve the riddle OR Balin figuring out Thorin's plan for himself.
I thought you might want screencaps. Support of the theory and all.
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Kim
Valinor
Jan 28 2015, 6:19am
Post #19 of 21
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well considered screencaps really enhance and underline the message, so it only makes sense to include a few to support your hypothesis. The second one also doubles as a support of the "best hair in middle earth" conclusion (not a theory, that one's been proven).
#OneLastTime
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Saneliur
Bree
Jan 28 2015, 10:36am
Post #20 of 21
(499 views)
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And every other scene between Richard Armitage and Martin Freeman.
Absolutely amazing actors and all their scenes are so very well acted it's beyond words.
I went to see the movie three times, second and third times just to see their performances.
Perfectly brilliant 
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By that point in the Movie?
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Thnak you Ilmatar!
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