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Riddles in the Fire: What if Bilbo woud have been the main character in the two stories?

Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea


Jan 19 2015, 7:23pm

Post #1 of 16 (947 views)
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Riddles in the Fire: What if Bilbo woud have been the main character in the two stories? Can't Post

I mean, Tolkien didnt think about a sequel to the hobbit but if he had planned that I wonder if Bilbo , in the hobbit would havd been a youngster and then instead Frodo, Bilbo could have been the one to take the ring to Mordor in his 50´s.

Frodo could have been a fifth hobbit in the company. It makes me think about a more different dinamics in the fellowship

But I guess that the main reason beyond Tolien´s reach is that if would have been Bilbo, it would have been technically impossible to get rid of the ring in the heart of Mordor after all those years of keeping

But it would hve been a terriffic showdown between Bbilbo and Gollum at mount doom

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true

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noWizardme
Half-elven


Jan 21 2015, 6:58pm

Post #2 of 16 (738 views)
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well, Tolkien did start a hobbit sequel, and did consider having Bilbo in it. [In reply to] Can't Post

In December 1937, he wrote to his publisher that he would work on a sequel, but expressed some doubts about how hobbits could fit in with the less comic material he now wanted to write. He wrote a couple of drafts of "A Long Expected Party" in which Bilbo disappears and his off on an adventure. But it seems Tolkien hasn't sorted out what the adventure would be.

Christopher Tolkien, describing this post of his father's work in "History of Middle Earth Vol 6 (The Return of the Shadow) then quotes Tolkiens biographer, Humphrey Carpenter, as thinking that Tolkien was stuck because he'd said in the Hobbit that Bilbo "remained happy to the end of his days", which would be inconsistent with a further adventure. C Tolkien calls this "plausible" (I was a bit surprised to read tags this, thinking that many authors would not feel this to be a big problem). Whatever the reason, Bilbo is quickly out as the main character, and his heir (first called Bungo and later Frodo) becomes the protagonist. This hobbits adventure got less and less like the original children's book of The Hobbit he more Tolkien wrote.

I know that's more of an answer to "why is Bilbo not the main character" rather than "How would you like the story of he had a bigger role?": I'm not sure I can imagine the kind of Bilbo-inclusive story you're envisaging.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


squire
Half-elven


Jan 21 2015, 7:22pm

Post #3 of 16 (737 views)
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It would basically be the exact same book. [In reply to] Can't Post

If Tolkien could have talked himself out of the restriction that Bilbo "lived happily ever after" as the end of The Hobbit promises, he could well have had Gandalf show up at Bag End ten years after Bilbo's return to Bag End with the bad news that the ring was The Ring. Off to Rivendell we go with some younger relatives and the game is on!

The rewrite of "happily ever after" would be considerably less involved than the one Tolkien actually did do to adjust the 'Riddles in the Dark' chapter after he finished LotR.

So then Bilbo would then have been in his mid-60s or so, not in his100s, and easily able to endure the same adventures that Frodo and the younger Bilbo have and had in their early 50s in the actual books. I can't think of a single thing that Bilbo need do differently than what our Frodo does. The personality differences between the two hobbits are fairly vague (Frodo is somewhat more fatalistic, Bilbo more sanguine and certainly a little more field-tested for a second go-round). What "different dynamics" in the Fellowship could you project, if this book had been written this way? Sam, Merry, and Pippin as Tolkien developed them in conjunction with Bilbo's heir Frodo, might well have come out exactly the same in this new wash.

The "technical impossibility" of Bilbo letting go the Ring at Mt. Doom is exactly what Frodo actually experiences, for something like the same reason of becoming too attached to it as its power increases in proximity to its master.



squire online:
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Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jan 21 2015, 8:49pm

Post #4 of 16 (730 views)
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You might very well enjoy "The Return of the Shadow" [In reply to] Can't Post

if you like this sort of speculation. You'll be amazed at how long it took Tolkien to figure out where this story was heading and who was going on the journey.








Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea


Jan 21 2015, 10:29pm

Post #5 of 16 (707 views)
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where I can find it? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true

Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer

Hobbit Cinema Marathon Hero



BlackFox
Half-elven


Jan 22 2015, 9:25am

Post #6 of 16 (702 views)
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It's the title of the sixth volume of HOME. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 



Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea


Jan 22 2015, 1:36pm

Post #7 of 16 (689 views)
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Sorry but can I get some link to it? [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks:)

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true

Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer

Hobbit Cinema Marathon Hero



BlackFox
Half-elven


Jan 22 2015, 1:58pm

Post #8 of 16 (676 views)
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That would mean linking to a copyright violation [In reply to] Can't Post

Which is a no-no.



Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jan 22 2015, 2:05pm

Post #9 of 16 (684 views)
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Here's a link to Amazon which gives a nice (short) description [In reply to] Can't Post

of "The Return of the Shadow". Be sure to click on the "Read more".

click




Harukalioncourt
Registered User

Jan 22 2015, 2:37pm

Post #10 of 16 (681 views)
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Right choice [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
If Tolkien could have talked himself out of the restriction that Bilbo "lived happily ever after" as the end of The Hobbit promises, he could well have had Gandalf show up at Bag End ten years after Bilbo's return to Bag End with the bad news that the ring was The Ring. Off to Rivendell we go with some younger relatives and the game is on!

The rewrite of "happily ever after" would be considerably less involved than the one Tolkien actually did do to adjust the 'Riddles in the Dark' chapter after he finished LotR.

So then Bilbo would then have been in his mid-60s or so, not in his100s, and easily able to endure the same adventures that Frodo and the younger Bilbo have and had in their early 50s in the actual books. I can't think of a single thing that Bilbo need do differently than what our Frodo does. The personality differences between the two hobbits are fairly vague (Frodo is somewhat more fatalistic, Bilbo more sanguine and certainly a little more field-tested for a second go-round). What "different dynamics" in the Fellowship could you project, if this book had been written this way? Sam, Merry, and Pippin as Tolkien developed them in conjunction with Bilbo's heir Frodo, might well have come out exactly the same in this new wash.

The "technical impossibility" of Bilbo letting go the Ring at Mt. Doom is exactly what Frodo actually experiences, for something like the same reason of becoming too attached to it as its power increases in proximity to its master.


Indeed. I like how the story continues with bilbo's nephew. It proves that Many of the choices that we make and some things that affect us are sometimes also visited upon our children and grandchildren.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jan 23 2015, 11:33am

Post #11 of 16 (659 views)
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I think I'm getting much the same book too - do you get something else, Mr. A? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm finding it difficult to imagine the book with Bilbo added, but as far as I can I get the rather interesting result that it comes out similar.

Does that suggest that, crudely, Bilbo = Frodo + Sam ? That is, Bilbo combines some of Frodo's introversion and nobility with some of Sam's practicality.

(Muddled up with that half-completed thought is that Ursula Le Guin has written somewhere that Frodo & Sam are almost complementary parts of the same character, and that I think I can remember some Tolkien comment to the effect that Sam is Bilbo's true successor, Frodo becoming too unworldly [but I don't' think that was the exact word] because of the pressures of his quest. I'm note sure yet whether those ideas really fit together in any interesting way - I seem to be stuck with them as jigsaw pieces. So I'd like to hear opinions!)

Not sure if you were imagining particular places where adding Bilbo would change the story, Mr A - if you have done that and want to say more, that would be interesting.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Darkstone
Immortal


Jan 23 2015, 7:37pm

Post #12 of 16 (666 views)
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Lessee.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Going with squire’s assumption of 10 years later, Bilbo could be accompanied by Rorimac Brandybuck who loved good wine especially Bilbo’s Old Winyard; Paladin Took, a sensible type who led the resistance and later a small army against the Ruffians (So the roles of sensible Brandybuck and foolish Took roles in the Quest would seem to be reversed); and Gaffer Gamgee who doubtless would not be very much impressed by Elves and Dragons.

Saruman probably isn’t Sauron’s pawn yet, so Gandalf isn’t waylaid and can meet the hobbits in Bree.

Gollum hasn’t been captured by Sauron, so no Black Riders looking for “Baggins”. (So Bilbo never receives a wound from the Morgul blade.)

Gollum hasn’t been captured by Aragorn and interrogated by Gandalf, so little is known about him or the ring.

At Rivendell the Fellowship could be composed of Gandalf, the four hobbits, Legolas, Balin, the steward of Gondor’s son Echthelion II, and Rohirrim prince in exile Thengel.

20 year old Aragorn probably isn’t going. He’s just been told of his heritage, may or may not have met Arwen, has yet to meet Gandalf, and the adventures of Thronogil have yet to be.

There’s no colony in Motia to lure the Fellowship there.

The danger on the Gap of Rohan route would be the greedy and quarrelsome King Fengel of Rohan, who besides developing a lust for the ring might also take a dim view of potential rival Thengel.

Sauron is stiill rebuilding Barad-Dur, so the Black Gate may not be there, so the northern route could be open. Then again Gollum may not yet have explored the ways of the Dead Marsh so everyone drowns.

As for the southern route, Gollum hasn’t met Shelob yet, so no betrayal there, though she’ll be one nasty surprize.

The quest could well fail because there is no War of the Ring to distract Sauron and his minions from finding the ring.

All in all some potentaiily interesting variations are possible.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”


(This post was edited by Darkstone on Jan 23 2015, 7:40pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jan 23 2015, 9:59pm

Post #13 of 16 (639 views)
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Ah! i hadn't thought of that: i was imagining everything happening sooner: that would create the same environment as we see in LOTR, and so maybe that's what makes it come out the same?// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jan 23 2015, 10:09pm

Post #14 of 16 (656 views)
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Well, but ... [In reply to] Can't Post

..since the Author is in control of the timeline, maybe all those things had happened in the elapsed time. Surely the Author has at least as much control of these things as the Filmmaker? Wink








squire
Half-elven


Jan 23 2015, 11:02pm

Post #15 of 16 (636 views)
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That's the other way to take it, of course [In reply to] Can't Post

If, as you lay out, we project Bilbo 10 years after The Hobbit into the Lord of the Rings story-world as we now know it, then as you say all the characters from LotR would be much younger or perhaps not even born yet. The various events in the timeline would be happening as laid out in Appendix B, and yes, the entire story would consequently be quite different from the one we have.

My earlier answer was based on the original question about how Tolkien might have kept Bilbo as the hero while writing the Hobbit sequel that turned out to be about the Ring. In such a scenario of course none of LotR would have been written yet. All of Tolkien's characters in the second book (except those few from The Hobbit), and the entire time line of the Third Age, were made up from scratch at the same time as or even after the story of Bilbo's heir and the Ring developed through repeated drafts. Had Tolkien invented all of them just as he did, they all would naturally be at the right ages and in the right sequence for the War of the Ring to take place in the years we now think of as 2952-53, not 3018-19 (although he could just as well have decided that The Hobbit took place in 3007-08, and ... well, you see what I mean).

The only person who would need to be "missing" would be... Frodo. (Although I do appreciate the comment that Sam plays a role relative to Frodo's personality that might not actually fit with our Bilbo hero!)



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jan 24 2015, 10:46am

Post #16 of 16 (680 views)
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absolutely: you d think that the author was fully in charge of the"story machine" and could twiddle the controls anyway he liked [In reply to] Can't Post

So the outside world into which Bilbo would set off could have reached the situation into which Frodo goes (with the usual "barely have time to counter the dark forces" scenario to help keep up the tension). Or, as I thought Darkstone was imagining, the Ringbearer steals a substantial march on Sauron, by setting out so much earlier in otherwise unchanged timelines.

And by a similar argument, the author can theoretically change any other aspect of the story at all, the problem being to come up with a "good" story. (For this kind of game of speculation, I suppose we have to imagine Middle-earth as being largely unchanged except for a few knob twiddle s: otherwise we have no joint frame of reference in which to work. )


The other thing I find interesting is how some of the knobs on the story machine seem to get locked into position early on. Sometimes that might not seem to make much sense to anyone other than the author: for example, as squire has said it would have been simple enough for Tolkien to amend Bilbo's "happily ever after" in the Hobbit when he did his second edition revisions, had he wanted Bilbo for a further adventure after all. Other authors would have just ignored that while problem, I think. But as far as I know, once Tolkien had decided/discovered that Bilbo was a minor character in this new story, he never investigated putting Bilbo back in. I suppose that either he had a particular reason why the story wouldn't work that way, or perhaps it was one of the near-infinite number of options he didn't consider, and so didn't have a specific reason for. I think that with many authors, and certainly with Tolkien, a lot of this decision making is unconscious: the author becomes aware that this is how the story goes, as opposed to realising that a certain thing won't work. As an example of conscious twiddling, we see in Return of the Shadow that Tolkien realised there will have to be some way of getting Gandalf out of the picture in FOTR despite the problem that he would never willingly leave Frodo's side.

I think these thought experiments can be fun, trying experimental plot changes: my interest is that it usually shows the story to be a very finely calibrated machine, and thinking about why it wouldn't work so well on other settings can help you appreciate the original more (or practice the problems of putting, if you're thinking about writing your own stuff).

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154

 
 

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