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Brethil
Half-elven
Jan 24 2015, 12:27am
Post #101 of 119
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Thanks for a great discussion lead BF! //
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jan 24 2015, 2:53am
Post #102 of 119
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I'm sorry to have largely missed your chapter, but I'd like to say thank-you for getting us off to such a great start!!
1. First of all, why the "detour" (which encompasses not only the chapter currently in question, but also Chapters Seven and Eight, "In the House of Tom Bombadil" and "Fog on the Barrow-downs")? Is it merely a relic from the time LOTR was only to become a sequel to The Hobbit? How vital is it to the story? What "purpose" does it serve (other than functioning as a manifestation of the joy of storytelling)?
I think we are still in the part of the story where we are supposed to just be getting a taste of adventure. We have spent the last five and a half chapters in The Shire-- a familiar place-- and we are on the edge of the epic about to unfold. We need to be slowly introduced to the larger world of Middle-Earth, and the vast world beyond The Shire, so JRR is still working us slowly out of the idea that this is The Hobbit 2. Up unitl now, all the adventures are similar to Bilbo's in theme and style, but by the end of the book, it will be clear this is no 'there and back again children's adventure'. That full revelation will not come until Rivendell.
2. "The Old Forest" presents the reader with a rather self-contained story (reminiscent of the more episodic nature of The Hobbit). How (well) does it fit in with the rest of the narrative, the "big picture"?
As I said, I think JRR is still catering to the needs of those who expect another Hobbit, but subtly laying the groundwork for a larger tale.
3. What are the key features of the setting, notably the Old Forest? How does it compare to other forests of Middle-earth (Mirkwood, Fangorn, Lothlórien etc.)? Does it bear a resemblance to any other fictional or non-fictional forest?
This reminds me of Bilbo's Mirkwood, a moderately perilous place where small hobbits can have adventures. It's not meant to be horribly frightening, more than mysterious, in keeping with the light tone of The Hobbit.
4. How would you describe the atmosphere/mood of the chapter (namely, that of the titular forest)? How has it been created? Do any patterns emerge?
Hobbit-like. We still have not left the legacy of the previous book behind.
After an hour or two [the hobbits] had lost all clear sense of direction, though they knew well enough that they had long ceased to go northward at all. They were being headed off, and were simply following a course chosen for them - eastwards and southwards, into the heart of the Forest and not out of it.
5. When did you realize that something was "off"? Later, Tom Bombadil tells the hobbits that "all paths lead [to Withywindle]" and that "it's hard for the little folk to escape [the Old Man Willow's] cunning mazes" -- were the hobbits doomed to end in the Willow's trap from the moment they stepped into the woods or is it possible to track down a moment when they take a "wrong turn" (as in "Fog on the Barrow-downs")?
Well, I thought of Bilbo's Mirkwood all the while, but when Sam mutters about the Willow 'singing', I knew there was something more than confusion working here.
6. Does this chapter shine any new light on the characters of the four hobbits or on hobbit folk in general?
Sam is oddly perceptive of the Old Willow's malice. I wonder if this is an after-effect of him meeting Elves and growing-up a little?
Suddenly Frodo himself felt sleep overwhelming him. His head swam. There now seemed hardly a sound in the air. The flies had stopped buzzing. Only a gentle noise on the edge of hearing, a soft fluttering as of a song half whispered, seemed to stir in the boughs above. He lifted his heavy eyes and saw leaning over him a huge willow-tree, old and hoary. Enormous it looked, its sprawling branches going up like reaching arms with many long-fingered hands, its knotted and twisted trunk gaping in wide fissures that creaked faintly as the boughs moved.
7. Who or what is the Old Man Willow? How typical/atypical villain does it make? Can you think of any examples of similar beings in other literary texts?
He is a renegade Ent, I think. Or else he is a Huorn that was left abandoned when the Entwives left the Shire.(I think they sowed the Shire and Sam's cousin did see an Entwife!)
He is a hobbit-sized villain, able to be conquered with a song and a flourish. We will meet more dangerous creatures later, but for now, he is dangerous enough.
8. What do you think would have happened hadn't Tom Bombadil come to the hobbits' rescue?
They would have burned the Willow or hacked at it, and been crushed by him. Soem might have escaped, but there would have been casualties.
9. If you remember the first time you read the book, do you recall who you thought Bombadil was when he first appeared in "The Old Forest"? How has your perception of him changed over time?
I thought he was an odd fellow (I saw the films first) and silly. He seemed to be an old man attune to nature and more down-to-earth than even Hobbits.
My feelings towards him are constantly evolving, but as of right now, I think he stands for much of Hobbit core-values: Love of Nature, contentment, joviality, and keeping to one's own business.
10. Can Bombadil's sudden appearance be said to exemplify deus ex machina? How does it compare to Tolkien's (other) uses of the device (and of eucatastrophe)? '
I never thought he was too unexpected. They are in a wild forest, and given the sudden appearances of strange creature in The Hobbit, it doesn't seem too off if we see this as a continuation of that tone. There is no foreshadowing, and he is unexpected, but thw writing has not developed much past the stage of a fairy tale or just-so story, in terms of plot depth. Most of the key story threads have been laid far back, but run deep until they rise to stand tall later. It was only after I had finished LotR that I could see how these beginning chapters laid the foundation for an epic.
11. Compare the use of song by the Old Man Willow and Tom Bombadil. Do similarities outweigh differences, or vice versa?
Well, in the Sil, some magic is related to song (e.g. Luthien, Thu(Sauron), Finrod, etc...) so I see this as a bit of First Age in the Third.
After that the hobbits heard no more. Almost at once the sun seemed to sink into the trees behind them. [---] Great shadows fell across them; trunks and branches of trees hung dark and threatening over the path. White mists began to rise and curl on the surface of the river and stray about the roots of the trees upon its borders. Out of the very ground at their feet a shadowy steam arose and mingled with the swiftly falling dusk.
It became difficult to follow the path, and they were very tired. Their legs seemed leaden. Strange furtive noises ran among the bushes and reeds on either side of them; and if they looked up to the pale sky, they caught sight of queer gnarled and knobbly faces that gloomed dark against the twilight, and leered down at them from the high bank and the edges of the wood. They began to feel that all this country was unreal, and that they were stumbling through an ominous dream that led to no awakening. (my emphasis)
12. How, if at all, does this passage relate to Tolkien's recurring use of the dream motive?
I never thought of that, but rather of the drowsing effects of Mirkwood's Enchanted stream.
13. The Ring is curiously absent from this chapter, i.e. it's not mentioned once. How noticeable is it? Do you think it's a deliberate decision by the author or a mere chance?
Well, I never noticed! I think the chapter is supposed to get us on our way into the Wide World, and the Ring had a whole chapter of discussion, so we know all we need for the moment. It recieves more attention later, to keep us interested, but it is not until Rivendell that it makes it's next starring appearance.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jan 24 2015, 2:58am
Post #103 of 119
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Oi! Who you callin' a 'tome writer'!
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I prefer the term: 'chronic rambler'. 
Or less formally: 'professional wind-bag'. 
*Scoff*
'Tome writer', indeed!!   
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jan 24 2015, 3:13am
Post #104 of 119
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I think it was encouragement to himself...
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Maybe some more of the idea of 'singing when in trouble' comes through in Tom's song he teaches the hobbits to summon his aid. Also, the Elves singing drove away the Riders, so song seems to be at least somewhat linked to 'magic' as it was in the First Age. (cf. Luthien, the Ainu, Finrod, and others)
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jan 24 2015, 3:28am
Post #105 of 119
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I have to make my way through all these comics at some point. This is brilliant!
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jan 24 2015, 3:32am
Post #106 of 119
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Gandalf said: 'Swords are of no use here!' (i.e. against the Blarog) He didn't say anything about arrows... Methinks Legolas was angling for the top spot in the company, only to be one-upped by Aragorn... Tricksy Elves....They say both 'yes' and 'no'....
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jan 24 2015, 3:34am
Post #107 of 119
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I think they stuck to the main road
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No Black Riders to dodge then.
OTOH, Gandalf wanted a chat with Bombadil, so do you think he knew of Old Man Willow?
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Jan 24 2015, 4:38am
Post #108 of 119
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All right, this is the quote of the year for me:
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"Middle-earth is alive, and it's not altogether pleased." 
Oh, and this really pushed my button. "Up, down, coiling, serpentine, Withywindle, entangling, lost. Wouldn't be surprised if the numbers 4, 8, 15, 16, 23 and 42 are in there somewhere."
(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Jan 24 2015, 4:43am)
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Jan 24 2015, 5:03am
Post #109 of 119
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Of course, the rings would tell the story.
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You know,
Tree rings tell of Elven Kings, under the sky . . .
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Jan 24 2015, 5:25am
Post #110 of 119
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" . . . so I see this as a bit of First Age in the Third."
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I like this very much! I'd never had this occur to me.
(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Jan 24 2015, 5:26am)
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Terazed
Bree
Jan 24 2015, 5:38pm
Post #112 of 119
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forrests and the land of dreams
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I was planning on discussing this later but I wanted to place a chip down on the table since the question was asked about the meaning of this detour and the dreams. My contention is that Tolkien is a throw back to the age of romanticism and some of the tenants of that era apply. The first is the importance of the night and dreams. This is the land of the subconscious. In the philosophy of the popular philosopher Schopenhauer the subconcious was the place where one could come closest to piercing the veil of Maia (to use the Buddist term) and experience the world in itself. The permanently dark forest to romantics was a place of dreams and the subconcious and hence a place closer to the reality of the world in itself. I am thinking that this detour and indeed all of Tolkien's detours into forests are journeys into the land of the subconcious and the world in itself. In this case the dream starts at the gate and ends when they arrive back at the road. That having been said pay attention to when descends his characters into the darkness of forests and when he pulls them out into the daylight. Also pay attention to calls such as old man willow trying to pull them back into the land of dreams. Also think about in the next chapter why Tom, a permenant resident of the land of freedom from illusion (wahn, if you remember my old discussions from last summer) and why the ring has no power to him. Anyway hopefully I can expound on this more in later chapters.
As per my normal modus operandi he is my usual example of the siren call of the land of dreams to abandon the reality and peril of the real world. Notice how in this land honor, power, and money all have no meaning. Also notice that it is a world where no action is possible.
TRISTAN
O we were now
dedicated to night!
Spiteful day,
filled with envy,
could separate us with its deceit
but no longer cheat us with its lies!
Its idle pomp,
its boastful glare,
is derided by him whose sight
night has blessed.
The fleeting lightning
of its flickering fire
blinds us no more.
Before him
who has lovingly looked
at death's night,
and has known
its deep secrets,
the lies of daylight honour and fame,
power and profit,
glittering so bright –
are scattered
like barren dust in the sun.
Amid day's empty fancies
one single longing remains,
the longing
for holy night,
where everlasting,
solely true,
love's delight laughs to him!
Tristan draws Isolde gently down on to a flowery bank, sinks on his knees before her and lays his head on her arm.
BOTH
O sink down upon us,
night of love,
make me forget
I live:
take me into your bosom,
free me from the world!
TRISTAN
Extinguished now
is the last glimmer ...
ISOLDE
of what we thought,
of what we dreamed ...
TRISTAN
all remembrance ...
ISOLDE
all recollection ...
BOTH
holy twilight's
glorious presentiment
obliterates the horror of delusion,
setting us free from the world.
ISOLDE
The sun lies hidden
in our breast,
stars of bliss
shine smiling.
TRISTAN
Gently enfolded
in your spell,
sweetly melting
before your eyes ...
ISOLDE
heart to heart,
lip to lip ...
TRISTAN
bound together
in one breath ...
BOTH
my eyes grow dim,
blinded with ecstasy,
the world and its vanities
fade away ...
ISOLDE
the world which lying day
illuminates for us ...
TRISTAN
then, confronting
cheating illusion ...
BOTH
I myself am
the world:
supreme bliss of being,
life of holiest loving,
never more to awaken,
delusion;free,
sweetly known desire.
Tristan and Isolde sink down in total rapture, their heads together on the flowery bank.
BRANGAENE’S VOICE
from the battlements
Alone I watch
in the night:
you to whom
love's dream laughs,
heed the cry
of one who
foresees ill
for the sleepers
and anxiously
bids them awake.
Take care!
Take care!
Soon the night will pass.
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jan 24 2015, 10:07pm
Post #113 of 119
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Ah, I think you have it now...
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Here we are, instructing the next generation of Tomb Riders.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jan 24 2015, 10:49pm
Post #114 of 119
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I'm dying here. Well maybe I'll be ridden one day?
Whatcha do 'google' "boy riding tomb" ?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jan 24 2015, 11:07pm
Post #115 of 119
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What ever do you mean? That's me and my little niece Elvira-- life-time members of the Tomb Riders of America...Okay, we're the only members, but not for long, I'm sure!  Soemtimes, we ride Mausoleums! You can fit a whole family up there!
Not really! I Google-d something to the effect of 'sitting on gravestone' 
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
(This post was edited by Rembrethil on Jan 24 2015, 11:08pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 25 2015, 10:54am
Post #116 of 119
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I'll look forward to more on this! A question on this as a Romantic motif, if i may?
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Elsewhere in this week's business, there's been some discussion of forests and dreams, tending in a psychological direction http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=828683#828683. That reading has being in the forest as a metaphor for our heroes' state. A hero might have to develop as a character in order to leave the forest (at least metaphorically, if not 'leave' literally).
How about the Romantic tradition? Is the first dream an episode that passes naturally, having in the meantime given us some insight into the characters or situation? Or do characters have to rouse themselves?
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Terazed
Bree
Jan 25 2015, 8:16pm
Post #117 of 119
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Nature, the land before the fall
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For romantics the quest for nature was a quest for a time before the fall. This could be taken in the traditional Christian sense or in the more psychological sense. In the psychological sense the cause of the fall is our knowledge of our own mortality and how it impacts us. The return to nature would be for them a return to a childlike state. It would be to live in the present with no real concern for the past or future. Someone living in this state of harmony with nature would live in a world without pain or suffering.
Take a look at Tom again. He is a little man who wears big childrens yellow rain boots. He lives in the present only. He is man who lives with no pain, nor fear, nor suffering. He is a being from before the fall. Since the ring is a product from after the fall how could it possibly have any effect on someone who still exists before the fall?
To answer your questions about heroes I would say that nature, or in this case the forest, is symbolic of childhood. When the hero leaves the forest he or she experiences the fall and now is burdened with original sin and the never ending burden of needing to be redeemed which in the end is the driving force of the world.
(This post was edited by Terazed on Jan 25 2015, 8:20pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 25 2015, 8:29pm
Post #118 of 119
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Thanks, that's really helpful! //
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~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jan 25 2015, 9:13pm
Post #119 of 119
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gives a certain bourgeoisie touch to them both.
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