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elentari3018
Rohan
Jan 14 2015, 5:57am
Post #1 of 16
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Thrain encounter in the Desolation of Smaug EE
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According to bookverse and Tolkien, Gandalf obtained the map from Thrain when he found him in Dol Guldur all tortured and a shell of his own self. And then AFTER this encounter, was able to give the map and key to Thorin so that he can complete the Quest. However, in the movies, it is different.... Gandalf initiates the Quest (somehow obtaining the key and map somewhere) and then in the DoS Extended, finds Thrain in Dol Guldur....
According to LotR Wiki:
But before his death, while on a mission to Dol Guldur, Gandalf the Grey came upon Thráin, and was given the old map. Thráin appeared so diminished that he had forgotten almost everything as well as his own name. Gandalf promised to deliver it to Thráin's son, but Thráin at the time had forgotten his name so Gandalf had no way of knowing who he was and did not expect to be able to fulfill this promise. There Thráin died.[4]
http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Thr%C3%A1in_II#cite_note-3
So is this another deviation of timeline? I think if it was shown somewhere in AUJ movie flashback of Gandalf encountering Thrain first, it would make more sense of how Gandalf knows about the map and key and how he could give this to Thorin....
Any reason why PJ would film it like that? Timing purpose? It would make more sense by sticking to Tolkien though...
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
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lurtz2010
Rohan
Jan 14 2015, 6:10am
Post #2 of 16
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We don't really need to see how Gandalf got the key. We know him and Thrain were friends and he gave it to him before the battle of Moria, that's enough imo. There's also the fact that if Thrain had the map and key hidden on him the whole time he was in Dol Guldur then it would make the enemy look pretty stupid, they didn't even check down his pants or up his arse to see if he was hiding anything?
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Jan 14 2015, 6:11am
Post #3 of 16
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I think he just liked the idea of having Thrain still being alive during the events of The Hobbit for dramatic purposes. In the movie universe Gandalf gets the map and key from Thrain when he visits him before Azanulbizar. Thorin mentions this meeting while he talks to Gandalf at the Prancing Pony.
(This post was edited by Mooseboy018 on Jan 14 2015, 6:12am)
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Jan 14 2015, 9:38am
Post #4 of 16
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I think the "key" difference...
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between book and movie is that in the book Thrain wanted Erebor reclaimed, and in the movie Thrain is desperate for Thorin not to enter the mountain, after having given away the map and key long before.
Book Thrain brooded over the loss of Erebor and indeed set out on his own quest towards the mountain, (inadvertently becoming lost and eventually captured by the enemy on the borders of Mirkwood.). When Gandalf found him in the pits of DG he still had the remaining wit and desire that his son should be given the means to complete that quest for him, even though he could not remember his own name, nor his son's.
However, the approach Jackson has taken with the movies is to have Thrain already handed over key and map for safe-keeping to a friend, rather than his heir... why? He did not know about Sauron's return or link with Smaug at that point, so why the need to protect Thorin? For that matter, why did Thrain have the map and key already and not Thror who was still alive before Azanulbizar?
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
(This post was edited by Eleniel on Jan 14 2015, 9:39am)
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Thrain II
Lorien
Jan 14 2015, 1:52pm
Post #5 of 16
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in the movies, I have no problem with that, I liked that we saw Thrain alive during the quest, but I was hoping we would see the when he gave the map and the key to Gandalf, since it is the important moment that started the quest. Maybe as a prologue to BOFA, but now we know it won't happen.
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Thrain II
Lorien
Jan 14 2015, 1:55pm
Post #6 of 16
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However, the approach Jackson has taken with the movies is to have Thrain already handed over key and map for safe-keeping to a friend, rather than his heir... why? He did not know about Sauron's return or link with Smaug at that point, so why the need to protect Thorin? For that matter, why did Thrain have the map and key already and not Thror who was still alive before Azanulbizar? because he already had the ring of power, Thror gave them to him before the battle, and he wanted for them to be safe in case they all died?
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arithmancer
Grey Havens
Jan 14 2015, 2:01pm
Post #7 of 16
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Thrain and Gandalf - filmverse
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However, the approach Jackson has taken with the movies is to have Thrain already handed over key and map for safe-keeping to a friend, rather than his heir... why? He did not know about Sauron's return or link with Smaug at that point, so why the need to protect Thorin? For that matter, why did Thrain have the map and key already and not Thror who was still alive before Azanulbizar?
Based on the Bree prologue, in the filmverse, Gandalf was a friend of Thrain's before the Battle of Moria. And Gandalf (in that same time frame, sometime before the battle) urged Thrain to retake Erebor. So to me, especially if Thrain at that time agreed with Gandalf that someone should do this, if maybe later, that made Gandalf a logical person to give the map and key before going to the battle. He is a person who wants the map and key to be used, and who unlike Thrain's heir, is not at risk of losing it in the upcoming battle.
I think Thrain's in-battle concern for Thorin and his comments to Thorin on Azog's intentions, may be based on a conclusion Thrain himself reached in the moment. (Did Azog yell anything, while fighting Thror or when flinging his head away? We are not provided subtitles, but my recollection is that he does. Perhaps Thrain understood him. In his Bo5A execution of Fili, he certainly makes his intentions clear, and we are given the translation).
As to why Thrain had the map and key, it is not explained, but also does not seem unreasonable considering he was Thror's heir.
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Jan 14 2015, 2:09pm
Post #8 of 16
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Thror handed the Ring etc over to Thrain before he set out alone to Moria - that makes sense. In the movie, however, we have everyone going to fight to reclaim Moria. I suppose on one hand it makes sense that the map and key might have been entrusted to someone neutral and trustworthy such as Gandalf, in case none survived the battle, but on the other, we have a more mentally unstable Thror than it appears in the books, so I find it curious that he would have given up the Dwarven Ring to his son voluntarily. Although it's not shown in the movie, there's presumably the suggestion that Thrain was able to remove it from Thror's body before he was captured.
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
(This post was edited by Eleniel on Jan 14 2015, 2:16pm)
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Jan 14 2015, 2:14pm
Post #9 of 16
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As often is the case.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jan 14 2015, 5:34pm
Post #10 of 16
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You raise a good example of what can happen when you alter the timeline and compress the story telling.
If i can I would like to pull together a number of related issues on the matter of the arkenstone/ stealth/ key and map and ring.
The Arkenstone should have been more silmarril like and the quest for erebor should have been to recapture the (A) by stealth which would have sanctified Thorins claim to the seven dwarf families to mount an assault on Erebor . That idea was shrouded in the narrative and should have been the centre piece of an adult Hobbit. Stealth means burglar and hidden entrance. It should be made clear the only Dwarf who would support an assault was Dain that is why in the end he came to Erebor once the seemingly helpless case of the dragon had been dealt with.
Map and Key given by G to T having been given to G by Thrain for safe keeping before the battle of A that is only spelled out in DOS by Thrain in an EE to low key excuse the pun.
The ring as you are bringing in Sauron much more should have been made of this element.
1) Thror's greed and over acquisitiveness of gold is explicitly due to the ring.
2) Thror gives the ring to Thrain before the journey to Moria for safekeeping. B of A is in responce to Thrors death and mutilation by Azog. The flash back should be very brief focus on Thrors death the hopeless war the loss of Thrain who kept ring thinking he would be victorious and Thorin takes Dains role and slays Azog and Bolg vows vengeance. When Bolg not Azog states I smelt your fathers fear that should set more alarm bells of with Gandalf the enemy has a dwarf ring bearer more questions which require answers and reason for him to dash to DG not be reminded by Galadriel to pop back to the High Fells.
That piece of dialogue by Azog in the film was intriguing and had a dynamic effect on the unfolding drama and notion of connected evil and yet was entirely ignored. It is inconceivable that Thorin and Gandalf would not discuss its consequences.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jan 14 2015, 5:54pm
Post #11 of 16
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I'm not sure I would be very keen on 1.
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It would seem to take away some of the moral of the tale, if greed was shown to be the fault of a "cursed" ring.
In the first couple of points, as you say, these were both in the films. I'm not sure additional highlighting is particularly required.
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Dcole4
Rohan
Jan 14 2015, 6:43pm
Post #12 of 16
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They apparently shot the key-giving scene
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Boyes mentioned they filmed it in one of her interviews. My feeling is that when it was split into three films, it had no place in the structure of the story. I would say it's the missing prologue. We know the Bree prologue of DOS was filmed after the switch, I think the Thrain key-giving scene was originally the prologue of There and Back Again, but since they've reached the mountain in BOTFA, they cut the scene entirely. It may also be that they shot it with the first actor that played Thrain and not with Antony Sher.
I hope when they inevitably release a big box-set they include all of the deleted scenes and abandoned threads. There are so many great moments we know were shot but haven't appeared in any version.
Back to Thrain, I think in the EE Gandalf will mention Thrain to Thorin when he's about to throw Bilbo off of the wall. Gandalf says "Thorin son of Thrain" and they cut to a shot of Thorin, emotional, but his reasoning for letting Bilbo go isn't justified. I think Gandalf will play the Thrain card in this scene in the EE.
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Thrain II
Lorien
Jan 14 2015, 8:21pm
Post #13 of 16
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I hope we will have a chance to see all of that stuff, and hope Thrain will be mentioned in Gandalfs conversation with Thorin in BOFA.
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor
Jan 14 2015, 10:16pm
Post #14 of 16
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"I was not at the Battle of Moria"... "No. But I was..."
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Well why didn't he give the map and key to Thorin? Because Thorin went with him to Moria. What difference would it have made? What if he give it Thorin and he would have been killed or captured by Azog?
Here is my theory: Thror wanted to reclaim Moria taking all of his best soldiers (including Thrain, Balin, Dwalin and Thorin). Either him or Thrain was keeper of map and key. The important point was... Before the Dwarves marched towards Moria Thrain mit with his old friend Gandalf and give him both objects. I don't think he told Thror... I guess Thrain was pretty aware of his fathers dragon sickness. In the DOS EE it became clear that Thrain knew of the Quest for Erebor. Maybe a plan he and Gandalf talked about earlier. Erebor was Thrains plan B if Thror would have died but Thrain doesn't. Because of his dragon sickness Thror was never an option for neither Gandalf nor Thrain. And Thorin was a little too young and I don't believe that Thrain (having one of the Seven) would have left Erebor and all it's gold to his son or anyone else. Gandalf is well known for not being very interested in gold and riches.
Later when Thrain disappeared and "only" Thorin survived Azanulbizar Gandalf decided to continue the Quest for Erebor with Thorin but not Thrain. In Dol Guldur Gandalf tells Thrain that he left him because he thought Thrain died before. But Thrain learned about the alliance between Sauron and Smaug which changed his view on reclaiming Erebor.
"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jan 15 2015, 4:15am
Post #15 of 16
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The first time I watched BOFA Gandalf will shame Thorin I am sure.
My understanding of the Boyes interview was it was tried in the AUJ prologue but did not work. I cannot for the life of me see why when G says and it was given to me for safe keeping that why we did not have the briefest flash of that meeting with a fit and healthy Thrain even in the AUJ EE.
Now I have the trilogy in front of me I feel absolutely key plot points are far to often driven off piste rather like looking at some thing which is slightly out of focus and the map the key and Thrain is right up there. Shining the right amount of light on those textual matters would have given the Hobbit Films the kind of gravitas that the LOTR films were invested with. What really impressed in the LOTR were scenes like Gandalf reading Isildurs scroll in MT and the accompanying flash backs.
I only wish Thror and Thrain had received the same kind of detailed unambiguous treatment.
One good example in the Hobbit was showing the witch king being buried giving us lore ( I know PJ's lore) and that Tolkien sense of untold stories but that was only in the DOS EE to explain the up and coming repositioned High Fells scene which was in the TE. Originally it would have been shown in the White Council scene and would have been a great back cloth to the up and coming High Fells scene which would have followed soon after.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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elentari3018
Rohan
Jan 15 2015, 4:31am
Post #16 of 16
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Then i hope more can be clarified in the EE of BotFA!
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I think there is still dialogue left in the gate scene because in the trailer, Gandalf asks Thorin "you have but one question to answer, Thorin, how shall this day end?"
And perhaps Gandalf says something to Thorin about his father loving him before Thrain perishes at Dol Guldur....
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
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I felt the same
[