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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
interesting (snippet from) not published letter about Tom B

a.s.
Valinor


Jan 6 2015, 12:34am

Post #1 of 15 (1891 views)
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interesting (snippet from) not published letter about Tom B Can't Post

There's an excerpt from a previously unpublished (well, as far as I can tell it is still "unpublished") letter from Tolkien discussing Tom Bombadil. Scroll through this blog post at the Hammond and Scull blog to read it.


Thought some might be interested.


a.s.

"an seileachan"


Through any dark time, I always remember Frodo's claim on the side of Mt. Doom that he "can manage it" because he must.
Sometimes, I have to manage it, too, as do we all. We manage because we must.




(This post was edited by entmaiden on Jan 8 2015, 1:20am)


squire
Half-elven


Jan 6 2015, 1:37am

Post #2 of 15 (1715 views)
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Whoa, shades of Charles Darwin [In reply to] Can't Post

This is a new angle, to me:
"B. does not want to make, alter, devise, or control anything: just to observe and take joy in the contemplating the things that are not himself. The spirit of the [deleted: world> this earth] made aware of itself. He is more like science (utterly free from technological blemish) and history than art. He represents the complete fearlessness of that spirit when we can catch a little of it." - JRRT, letter to Nevill Coghill, 8/21/54 (copyright Tolkien Estate).

I shudder to think that this introduction of the word "science" in the context of Tom's relationship to nature may be used to support the unsound but popularly circulated hypothesis that Tom and Goldberry are the Valar Aule the Smith and Yavanna the Gardener. Oh, boy. Well, this is grist for my discussion of the Tom B. chapter later this month. Thanks, a.s.!



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jan 6 2015, 3:47am

Post #3 of 15 (1690 views)
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Echoes in another letter [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
This is a new angle, to me:
"B. does not want to make, alter, devise, or control anything: just to observe and take joy in the contemplating the things that are not himself. The spirit of the [deleted: world > this earth] made aware of itself. He is more like science (utterly free from technological blemish) and history than art. He represents the complete fearlessness of that spirit when we can catch a little of it." - JRRT, letter to Nevill Coghill, 8/21/54 (copyright Tolkien Estate).

I shudder to think that this introduction of the word "science" in the context of Tom's relationship to nature may be used to support the unsound but popularly circulated hypothesis that Tom and Goldberry are the Valar Aule the Smith and Yavanna the Gardener. Oh, boy. Well, this is grist for my discussion of the Tom B. chapter later this month. Thanks, a.s.!






I see a thematic similarity to his words in #153: (September 1954)
"I do not mean him to be an allegory - or I should not have given him so particular, individual , and ridiculous a name - but 'allegory' is the only mode of exhibiting certain functions: he is then an 'allegory' or exemplar, a particular embodying of pure, (real) natural science: the spirit that desires knowledge of other things, their history and their nature, because they are 'other' and wholly independent of the enquiring mind, a spirit coeval with the rational mind, and entirely unconcerned with doing anything with the knowledge: Zoology and Botany not Cattle-breeding or Agriculture."









(This post was edited by Brethil on Jan 6 2015, 3:51am)


squire
Half-elven


Jan 6 2015, 4:11am

Post #4 of 15 (1709 views)
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Yes, good catch! [In reply to] Can't Post

I never saw that letter in the perspective that the new one brings fully into the light: Tom as the detached observer, interested in things for their own sakes, rather than with an eye to using them. Tolkien suggests that scientists, at their best, have that same detachment combined with sympathetic engagement.

It does help explain Tom's lack of interaction with the Ring. He has no desire for mastery that the Ring can enhance and seduce; yet he has tremendous power and knowledge on his own terms.

Thanks for the connection!



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


a.s.
Valinor


Jan 6 2015, 3:39pm

Post #5 of 15 (1645 views)
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thanks! that word 'science' [In reply to] Can't Post

was nagging at me, I knew we'd seen it before in the context of Tom B, but didn't go looking. Good thinking!

So as I see it, the newly found letter expands a bit on what Tolkien was getting at when he referred to Tom as an "embodiment of pure science", and I found that part helpful.

a.s.

"an seileachan"


Through any dark time, I always remember Frodo's claim on the side of Mt. Doom that he "can manage it" because he must.
Sometimes, I have to manage it, too, as do we all. We manage because we must.




Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jan 6 2015, 4:31pm

Post #6 of 15 (1648 views)
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Broken Link? [In reply to] Can't Post

That link doesn't work for me. I assume that this is the blog post you are referring to: http://wayneandchristina.wordpress.com/...-addenda-corrigenda/?

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


a.s.
Valinor


Jan 6 2015, 4:48pm

Post #7 of 15 (1627 views)
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Yes, thanks!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Dang tablet. Couldn't be the user of said tablet, I'm sure.

Cool

a.s.

"an seileachan"


Through any dark time, I always remember Frodo's claim on the side of Mt. Doom that he "can manage it" because he must.
Sometimes, I have to manage it, too, as do we all. We manage because we must.




Brethil
Half-elven


Jan 6 2015, 10:29pm

Post #8 of 15 (1600 views)
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Its a significant insight [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I never saw that letter in the perspective that the new one brings fully into the light: Tom as the detached observer, interested in things for their own sakes, rather than with an eye to using them. Tolkien suggests that scientists, at their best, have that same detachment combined with sympathetic engagement.

It does help explain Tom's lack of interaction with the Ring. He has no desire for mastery that the Ring can enhance and seduce; yet he has tremendous power and knowledge on his own terms.

Thanks for the connection!





in both forms of the quote by JRRT. Valuable insight into his thoughts expressed in both places and opens up the comparison of Science and Art on many levels...a philosophic handle on that Subcreation metaphor.
I don't want to go to far here though! Looking forward to your discussion during the chapter. (*rubs hands happily*)








Brethil
Half-elven


Jan 6 2015, 10:29pm

Post #9 of 15 (1600 views)
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Most welcome, a.s.! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the posting. Going to be a fantastic discussion once we get to Tom (as they all have been so far). I love a good enigma. Laugh








(This post was edited by Brethil on Jan 6 2015, 10:31pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Jan 6 2015, 10:30pm

Post #10 of 15 (1598 views)
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Thank you! [In reply to] Can't Post

for the link to the blog post. A site to get lost in, truly.








KingTurgon
Rohan


Jan 7 2015, 11:12pm

Post #11 of 15 (1562 views)
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I think [In reply to] Can't Post

what you posted lends more credence to my theory that Tom is the Flame Imperishable in a physical form. Cool


(This post was edited by KingTurgon on Jan 7 2015, 11:12pm)


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 8 2015, 1:21am

Post #12 of 15 (1550 views)
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I fixed a.s 's link [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks, Voronwe! I thought it was just me not being able to get the link working. Smile


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jan 8 2015, 1:39am

Post #13 of 15 (1558 views)
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Excellent [In reply to] Can't Post

It is good to have correct link in the first post, so that people can easily access the blog post. Wayne and Christina's blog is one of several Tolkien-related blogs that are well worth checking regularly.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


a.s.
Valinor


Jan 8 2015, 1:07pm

Post #14 of 15 (1557 views)
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thanks, both! [In reply to] Can't Post

May the hair on your toes ever grow long and glossy.


Smile


a.s.

"an seileachan"


Through any dark time, I always remember Frodo's claim on the side of Mt. Doom that he "can manage it" because he must.
Sometimes, I have to manage it, too, as do we all. We manage because we must.




swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Jan 13 2015, 9:04pm

Post #15 of 15 (1547 views)
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well now [In reply to] Can't Post

there'[s a worthy blog

(so many internets, so little time)

(good name there: Voronwe, one of my favs from outside LOTR)

"Judge me by my size, would you?" Max the Hobbit Husky.




 
 

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