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Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 2 2015, 5:11pm

Post #76 of 86 (3522 views)
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It is not stated overtly that Elrond was not at Dol Guldur. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The quote doesn't actually state what was said and, more importantly, that Gandalf is revealing new knowledge to Elrond (only that it was new knowledge to Bilbo). All we know is that he spoke words to Elrond on the subject, but these could be words of discussion/ reflection rather than information.

I think it is more open than just the reading you mention.



We have to assume a very convoluted conversation if we assume that Elrond accompanied the White Council to Dol Guldur (or a very sloppy memory on the part of Bilbo). Yes; it is possible that Gandalf and Elrond were talking around the subject as to not reveal too much about the White Council to Bilbo. However, the simpler explanation is that Elrond was never there.

Even the later clarifications about the nature and membership of the White Council (from LotR and other sources) don't positively place Elrond at Dol Guldur. It is possible that he was there, but far from certain.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Mar 2 2015, 6:07pm

Post #77 of 86 (3516 views)
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Not particularly convoluted I don't think. [In reply to] Can't Post

Just a discursive or reflective one rather than relaying new info. I don't think it would be odd for them to talk about the matter, especially as this would be the first time they had seen each other since.

And yes you are right Tolkien doesn't positively place Elrond there later, but then the same is true of everyone but Gandalf - yet there must have been other members of the White Council there (if not all) but none are named on site.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 2 2015, 7:31pm

Post #78 of 86 (3498 views)
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One Point [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Just a discursive or reflective one rather than relaying new info. I don't think it would be odd for them to talk about the matter, especially as this would be the first time they had seen each other since.



True. Except that it would be odd then for Bilbo not to catch on that Elrond had been part of it, unless he and Gandalf deliberately concealed the fact from the hobbit. It could still go either way, but I'll hold on to my own hypothesis.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Mar 2 2015, 7:41pm

Post #79 of 86 (3500 views)
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What suggests that Bilbo... [In reply to] Can't Post

Thought that Elrond was not involved?


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 2 2015, 7:52pm

Post #80 of 86 (3491 views)
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The text of the story itself. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
It was in this way that [Bilbo] learned where Gandalf had been to; for he overheard the words of the wizard to Elrond. It appeared that Gandalf had been to a great council of the white wizards, masters of lore and good magic; and that they had at last driven the Necromancer from his dark hold in the south of Mirkwood.



Nowhere is there any indication at all that Bilbo had any clue that Elrond (or any High Elves at all) was at all connected to Gandalf's council of white wizards, much less present in southern Mirkwood. Granted there is still much ambiguity in what is written, but to conclude that Bilbo knew that Elrond was part of the council we need to make assumptions that are not supported by the text.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 2 2015, 7:54pm)


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Mar 2 2015, 8:18pm

Post #81 of 86 (3486 views)
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There is no indication either way is there? [In reply to] Can't Post

The fact that Bilbo doesn't mention it isn't evidence that he thought the opposite (especially if we want to use that conclusion as a proof for something else!)

We are on difficult ground using the phrase "council of white wizards" to build on Bilbo's understanding as we, as readers, know this is a tenuous description for the White Council as described in more detail elsewhere.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 2 2015, 8:29pm

Post #82 of 86 (3483 views)
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Remember, I'm not claiming any 'proof' either way. [In reply to] Can't Post

I do think that one interpretation is more likely than the other given the limited information that we have.

I know that we have someone on these boards (I forget whom) who seems to use the terms proof and evidence interchangably. They do not mean the same thing.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Mar 2 2015, 9:04pm

Post #83 of 86 (3478 views)
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"A proof" not "proof" [In reply to] Can't Post

Certainly I didn't mean to imply the latter!


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 2 2015, 9:07pm

Post #84 of 86 (3487 views)
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Sorry if I misunderstood you! [In reply to] Can't Post

We've probably discussed this side-topic more than enough.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Dipling
Lorien

Mar 4 2015, 6:34am

Post #85 of 86 (3462 views)
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Strange... [In reply to] Can't Post

After watching BOFA at home (iTunes), i'm eagerly waiting for the EE (Extended Collector's Edition) - more than for the first two movies.

My biggest complaint is the glossy look. Everything is shining. Bad color grading choices. OK, the director wanted it that way.
Still, AUJ feels most real for me.

...


Dipling
Lorien

Mar 5 2015, 9:28pm

Post #86 of 86 (3423 views)
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Also [In reply to] Can't Post

With that gleamy look i also don't like the use of music. Shore didn't connect with the pictures as in LOTR and even AUJ.

And the score is not in front enough. When Bilbo gets mithril shirt, it is on too low volume. You can barely hear that nice piece of music. Sound effects and voice are in front.

That was not the problem in AUJ. I hoped they would correct that on BR. Maybe for EE. But it was probably PJ's choice.

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