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Darkstone
Immortal
Dec 29 2014, 2:25pm
Post #26 of 41
(412 views)
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The tremendous landscape of Middle-earth, the psychological and moral universe of The Lord of the Rings, is built up by repetition, semi-repetition, suggestion, foreshadowing, recollection, echo, and reversal. Through it the story goes forward at its steady, human gait. There, and back again.
-Ursula K. LeGuin, Rhythmic Patterning in The Lord of the Rings
******************************************
"We were somewhere around Cerin Amroth, in the heart of Elvendom, when the miruvor began to take hold."
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elostirion74
Rohan
Dec 29 2014, 3:03pm
Post #27 of 41
(396 views)
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donīt quite agree, and the vital difference lies in how you do it
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A good author or director can revisit an idea or a concept, but tweak it or use it in a different way, and itīs the ability to adapt the idea or the concept and the ability to use it to make connections with an actual dramatic effect between different parts of the story which distinguishes him/her from an author/director which only more or less copies the same scene and idea over and over again. Itīs the frequent and obvious copying of scenes and concepts and the storywise often rather pointless references which PJ & co is critized for.
When Aragorn treats Frodoīs wound with Athelas in FoTR and in RoTK uses is as a part of healing Faramir, Eowyn and Merry, there are differences both in terms of the actual effect of the treatment, in the way it is described and also partly in the context, since the scene in RoTK is clearly used as a sign of Aragorn being a rightful king. When you read the scenes of "The houses of healing" you donīt immediately think: this is exactly the same scene as when he treated Frodoīs wound on Weathertop earlier in the story, or: oh no, itīs the Athelas trick again. The connection between the two scenes is much more complex.
There are similarities between Bilbo during the Battle of the Five Armies and Pippin in the battle before the Black Gate when they both understand that the eagles are coming and they both lose consciousness, itīs even commented on in LoTR, but at the same time the differences are noticeable enough not to make you feel that the one is just a cheap copy of the other.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Dec 29 2014, 3:50pm
Post #28 of 41
(398 views)
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I don't suggest it's a cheap copy but my goodness
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The references of scenes, character types, locations, or devices etc etc are numerous between the LOTR text and TH text.
With the whole of middle earth and time in which to set his sequel Tolkien chose to revisit and reference the story of TH incredibly closely. Back we go to the Shire, back to Gandalf, back to children of half the characters in TH, back to the Trolls, Rivendell, goblins in tunnels under the Misty Mountains (and Gollum), Gandalf steering a band of travellers before needing to be exited from the plot, dark forests with wild keepers, giant spiders etc etc. let alone eagles at final battles, rescuing Gandalf from high places, bumps on heads, as you mention.
All of which is no hindrance to a great story and, I think, provides for interesting comparisons. But it seems odd to me not acknowledge it as a technique which is appropriate for the films sequels.
Of course one can like individual examples or not, but that tends not to be the nature of the comments. Instead they focus on the fact of the cross -referencing.
Ultimately, there is always the reverse Goldilocks argument, which is difficult to comment on, but at least the first step seems to me to be rather open to question.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Dec 29 2014, 5:27pm
Post #29 of 41
(393 views)
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It's simply another way of saying "it was taken straight from the book".
Calm down with the melodrama...
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Starling
Half-elven
Dec 29 2014, 7:15pm
Post #30 of 41
(380 views)
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I think this is possibly a case of
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differences in language understanding, rather than melodrama.
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patrickk
Rohan
Dec 29 2014, 9:44pm
Post #32 of 41
(366 views)
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...for that quote what an elegant way to put it.
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elostirion74
Rohan
Dec 29 2014, 10:46pm
Post #33 of 41
(354 views)
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it seems like we read very different comments, or read the same comments very differently
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Iīm sure we could engage in a long discussion about the similarities and references between the Hobbit and LoTR as books. LoTR, but most of all FoTR, definitely revisits some of the same locations and characters or makes references to events in the Hobbit. Sometimes the references and similarities make for interesting comparisons and contrasts, while at other times the similarities and connections are IMO very superficial and generalized.
But to the point: The great majority of the criticism Iīve seen of PJīs references between the Hobbit and LoTR films applies to the way he does it, to instances of direct and obvious copying of both visual shots, parts of scenes, devices etc and how the references draw attention to the references themselves instead of furthering or deepening the story. A technique is after all just a technique, the difference lies in the skill with which you apply it: how often you do it, if you do it in seemingly the same way all the time etc. If the connections are done in a way which hampers or weakens the story of the Hobbit films or in a way which makes the director & writing team seem lazy and unimaginative itīs not unfair to criticize it.
Itīs not to be denied, though, that different segments of the fandom had very different wishes for the Hobbit films also in terms of the references and connections between the Hobbit and LoTR. This will again colour their respective opinion of the intentional connections and references to LoTR that are inserted in the Hobbit films.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Dec 29 2014, 10:58pm
Post #34 of 41
(358 views)
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And that's the Goldilocks argument.
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But I'm surprised that that is the general impression you have. My own is that it is very rare to read a comment along the lines of "...of course Tolkien has a great deal of intertextuality but..." Instead, I seem to recall reading a vast majority that question the linkages in and of themselves.
But yes, the next step is, of course, to accede the first point but to suggest that unfortunately, whilst the way Tolkien does it is just right, the films are too hot, too cold, too salty, too sweet etc etc.
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Dec 30 2014, 4:59am
Post #35 of 41
(338 views)
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Thank you, Starling. You're quite right...//
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'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Dec 30 2014, 5:24am
Post #36 of 41
(339 views)
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You didn't need to add the offending comment in the end:
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we aren't all Anglo-Saxons or Americans on these Boards. My mother-tongue is French.
In the English language that I know, to rip off definitely has negative connotations, and is an equivalent to stealing.
If this is not what you meant, I apologize for my mistake and the misunderstanding it has caused in my post..
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Dec 30 2014, 5:31am
Post #37 of 41
(336 views)
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Perfect quote., summarizing it all. //
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'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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DigificWriter
Lorien
Dec 30 2014, 5:37am
Post #38 of 41
(333 views)
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.. by this. To what are you referring here?
The meeting of Frodo and Gandalf in the meadows knowing he had left Bilbo a few moments before.
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arithmancer
Grey Havens
Dec 30 2014, 5:52am
Post #39 of 41
(328 views)
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I suppose she means in FotR...
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...when Frodo first meets Gandalf as he rides his cart towards Hobbiton. In the AUJ prologue, we see Frodo set out to meet him.
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DigificWriter
Lorien
Dec 30 2014, 5:58am
Post #40 of 41
(325 views)
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... I just couldn't tell which 'he' she was referring to... hence the confusion.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Dec 31 2014, 9:05pm
Post #41 of 41
(320 views)
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I apologize as well. Wasn't aware you weren't a native English speaker.
But to let you know, I did not say "ripped off". I said something along the lines of "It was ripped straight from the book".
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