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Eruonen
Half-elven
Dec 26 2014, 9:08pm
Post #1 of 18
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The theatrical version is not clear on how the masses of orcs
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were defeated. The dwarves were massively outnumbered and would have been crushed. The Dale defenders were massively outnumbered and would have been slaughtered. The elves had been fighting on the field then are in Dale, but with diminished numbers. The Gundabad army was completely routed by eagles and Beorn? Thorin and Dwalin take on 100 orcs (seems to have been played for a joke)?
The numbers of orcs was huge, far larger than Helms Deep, and almost approaching Pelennor Fields size.
Note - I still really enjoyed the film, but these types of issues need not be present. The book battle would have been interesting to see filmed with the armies on the spurs of the mountain. Beorn needs much more action in the EE.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Dec 26 2014, 9:28pm
Post #2 of 18
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I am assuming the loss of their leadership signaling station
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brought on confusion and disorder leading to a route but that only partially explains things. Those engaged were not watching for every signal...or lack thereof. They would not know Azog and Bolg had fallen. Orcs do not do well without strong leadership, that seems clear.
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Holly Hobbit
Bree
Dec 26 2014, 9:43pm
Post #3 of 18
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The way the battle was portrayed is one of the problems I have with the end of BOTFA.
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I agree with the posters on here who think the movie should have had more Beorn defeating Orcs and more shots of Dain, the Elves, the Dwarves - pretty much everyone but the Durins, Bilbo, and Dwalin - especially toward the end of the battle when the Orcs were defeated. I felt like PJ forgot about the battle and focused on Ravenhill a bit too much. What about the other Dwarves in the company? Where was Balin's moment to shine in the defining battle of this "defining chapter"? Or Gloin's? Or Bifur's?
The number of Orcs on the battlefield appeared disproportionate to all the other armies, and then on top of that we don't see enough of the battle apart from Ravenhill to know how the Orcs were defeated. True, the Eagles came, but we didn't even see much of Eagles vs. Vampire Bats or Eagles vs. Orcs.
And TBH, I'm not sure it was a good idea to split up Thorin, Fili, Kili, Dwalin, and Bilbo from the rest of the battle. This probably made it a challenge to give equal attention to the other characters or paint a picture of the entire battle, because now the focus is divided between several places and our main characters are not on the battlefield. If it were up to me, all of the fighting would have taken place on the battlefield outside Erebor. Then all the characters would be in one place and it would be easier to show how all they worked together to defeat Azog and Bolg's forces.
And while it was very innovative to apply the fact that it was winter to Ravenhill as a snowy and icy setting, I'd always pictured Thorin, Fili, and Kili dying on the battlefield, so it was a bit jarring (and, frankly, disappointing) to see them separated from everyone else at the film's climax. Not to mention that my sister, who hasn't read the book, was led to wonder whether Ravenhill had been inspired by Frozen. *facepalm*
(This post was edited by Holly Hobbit on Dec 26 2014, 9:46pm)
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Dec 26 2014, 9:46pm
Post #4 of 18
(1006 views)
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"Ravenhill had been inspired by Frozen." Funny!
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Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea
Dec 26 2014, 10:05pm
Post #5 of 18
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It wasn't exactly clear what happened. It's a small quibble I have with the movie. You really couldn't tell when Thorin looked over the top of the ice waterfall who had won. I think when we see the EE Beorn and the Eagles clearly will be seen to dispatch the Gundabad horde. That was my take anyway as to what happened.
Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Dec 26 2014, 10:10pm
Post #6 of 18
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I actually thought the ambiguity worked out very well.
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It leaves it to the viewer to decide how much was Thorin and how much was Beorn/the eagles - which on a number of fronts seemed to me to be a successful way of handling things.
I have no idea if it was intended but it was, in the event, equivalent to deftness.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Dec 26 2014, 10:22pm
Post #7 of 18
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And the Fellowship was vastly outnumbered...
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...in a standoff with hundreds of Misty Mountain goblins in Moria.
Perhaps this passage from The Hobbit will explain:
At this point Gandalf fell behind, and Thorin with him. They turned a sharp corner. “About turn!” he shouted. “Draw your sword, Thorin!” There was nothing else to be done; and the goblins did not like it. They came scurrying round the corner in full cry, and found Goblin-cleaver and Foe-hammer shining cold and bright right in their astonished eyes. The ones in front dropped their torches and gave one yell before they were killed. The ones behind yelled still more, and leaped back knocking over those that were running after them. “Biter and Beater!” they shrieked; and soon they were all in confusion, and most of them were hustling back the way they had come.
Just two fighters made a horde of goblins retreat in confusion.
Why? Because goblins and orcs are cowards who are easily routed, even when they massively outnumber their foes.
For example, at Helm's Deep thousands of orcs and hillmen were routed by Erkenbrand and 1000 Rohirrim.
At the Pelennor Sauron's entire army of orcs, Haradhrim, and Easterlings was routed by the sudden appearance of 31 Rangers, three Elves, The Dwarf, and a bunch of newly freed galley slaves.
Yep, orcs aren't exactly the most reliable of soldiers.
******************************************
"We were somewhere around Cerin Amroth, in the heart of Elvendom, when the miruvor began to take hold."
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Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea
Dec 26 2014, 10:36pm
Post #8 of 18
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Same at Amon Hen with Aragorn/Gimli/Legolas and the Uruk Hai
Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13
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Darkstone
Immortal
Dec 26 2014, 10:52pm
Post #9 of 18
(889 views)
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And those were the suppossedly superior Uruk-hai.
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"We were somewhere around Cerin Amroth, in the heart of Elvendom, when the miruvor began to take hold."
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Dec 26 2014, 10:52pm
Post #10 of 18
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Aragorn arrived with more than that...
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A fleet of black ships of various sizes would have contained quite a few men..be they former slaves and / or troops from the Southern Fiefs (who also were marching - 4,000 - under Angbor.
It is clear orcs are not independent strategic thinkers for the most part and require a firm hand to direct them. The specially chosen commanders do have the brains but the majority are just savage drones.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Dec 26 2014, 10:55pm)
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MasterOrc
Rivendell
Dec 27 2014, 2:30am
Post #11 of 18
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possibility of a few things like-
* The dwarven army on Rams coming to the battle later and smashing the Orcs flank causing the Orcs to panic.
* The Elves taking a force out of Dale to fight there way and seek out the kings son on Ravenhill. We obviously see Thranduil up on Ravenhill once the battle has reached the end
* With Azog and Bolg fighting on Ravenhill, there obviously was nobody commanding the army below...
* Eagles and Beron obviously adds more chaos to the Orcs 
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Eurolock
Bree
Dec 27 2014, 4:43am
Post #12 of 18
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Not really a fair comparison...
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Firstly they did not number in the thousands.
Secondly, the Uruks' objective was to capture the halflings....rather than to eliminate the fellowship. They grabbed the (wrong) hobbits and ran.
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dubulous
Rohan
Dec 27 2014, 10:54am
Post #13 of 18
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I seem to recall a shot where quite a lot of the orc army is actually seen fleeing from the battle at the end. Probably the unexpected arrival of the eagles and Beorn, combined with the loss of their leader (which was already implied earlier would turn the battle in favor of the dwarves/elves/men) was enough to destroy the morale of the orcs and they abandoned the battle in disarray, many probably getting killed even as they were fleeing. I didn't really think it was left particularly unclear.
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor
Dec 27 2014, 11:15am
Post #14 of 18
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During the Battle of Azanulbizar the Dwarves were almost defeated and outnumbered but when Thorin defeated Azog the Orcs lost their strenght or will to fight.
We've seen similar situations in LOTR as well. When the Rohirrim arrive in Helms Deep or on the Pelennor Fields the Orcs are still the biggest arme but they run away. And after Saurons end and the destruction of the Ring all Orcs and Trolls at the Battle of the Black Gate flee although they could have easily crush their outnumbered enemies.
I think the movies told us that Orcs can fight but they need a strong presence behind them. A strong leader. Without one they hide in fear.
"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."
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DanielLB
Immortal
Dec 27 2014, 11:10pm
Post #15 of 18
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As Thorin looks over the waterfall
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You can see groups of Orcs fleeing back into the were-worm tunnels I guess a combination of the loss of their leader and the arrival of the eagles led to them fleeing back from where they came from.
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Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea
Dec 28 2014, 1:40am
Post #17 of 18
(545 views)
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With Azog dead the flag signals were gone. I hadn't thought about that one.
Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13
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Noria
Gondor
Dec 28 2014, 9:14pm
Post #18 of 18
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Saw BOTFA again today - gramma is right!
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The surviving orcs from the battle at the gates of Erebor fled back into the worm tunnels - we see it when Thorin looks out over the battlefield from the frozen waterfall before he collapses. The eagles destroyed the bats.
It appeared that Beorn and the eagles had eradicated Bolg’s army, though we only saw the beginning of the attack. At least those orcs were gone from the hill behind Azog and Thorin by the time those two fought on the ice. Dwalin and Bilbo had taken out more than a few as well.
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