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arithmancer
Grey Havens
Dec 22 2014, 11:57pm
Post #26 of 44
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It is not debatable that Wargs were in the book battle. But I have not seen anyone address what made them "key" in the book. Not every element that is present in a book, surely, is "key". I personally find Rateliffe's opinion, that the greatest departure of the film from the book was the absence of Wargs, a hyperbole. And, as he does not explain this opinion, I am puzzled as to why he holds it. Surely, to toss out an alternative suggestion, the role of the thrush in Smaug's death is more "key"? By letting Bard know of the hole in Smaug's armor, it provided a mechanism whereby the main character (Bilbo, who communicated this lack to the thrush in the book) plays a part in the final defeat of the dragon.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Dec 23 2014, 12:03am
Post #27 of 44
(326 views)
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How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
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Key - a thing that provides a means of gaining access to or understanding something. Five Armies...key to understanding that term is to know who the Five Armies are composed of and to my question, why was one eliminated from the movie? They were key in the book as both fast moving carriers of goblins, as fierce fighting animals and represent a combined army of beasts on their own without goblins. Why are they not part of the movie is the question once again.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Dec 23 2014, 12:07am
Post #28 of 44
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Alas I don't know him but he is incorrect, slightly.
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And the suggestion that warg-riders were the fifth army is further incorrect. "So began a battle that none had expected; and it was called the Battle of Five Armies, and it was very terrible. Upon one side were the Goblins and the wild Wolves, and upon the other were Elves and Men and Dwarves." Wild wolves were the fifth army, as you see from the direct quote above. The riders were certainly not, unless simply as an element of the goblin faction.
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arithmancer
Grey Havens
Dec 23 2014, 12:08am
Post #29 of 44
(317 views)
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I thought you meant the Wargs were key (adj., coming before all others in importance ). As to why Jackson did not feel they were needed for understanding of the movie title, he did have Five Armies - those of the Dwarves, Elves, Men, Dol Guldur, and Gundabad, as Rateliffe noted. Perhaps Jackson thought an army of Wargs would prevent this understanding of the title (by creating an excess of armies...?)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Dec 23 2014, 12:09am
Post #30 of 44
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I'm afraid it seems rude of me to persevere but
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I will observe if you get any joy with interest!
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ecthelionsbeard
Lorien
Dec 23 2014, 12:40am
Post #31 of 44
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the five armies as portrayed by the movie are an improvement. I've never perceived Goblins as a very threatening foe. Wargs, yes, but not Goblins. There like the super mario goombas of middle earth. Very very weak and disposable.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Dec 23 2014, 1:13am
Post #32 of 44
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Possibly, but orcs/goblins, coming from various places were
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already identified "in the book" as one army. JRRT said the goblins were riding wolves and there were wargs behind them (he makes a differentiation between the "wild wolves" and wargs). In the the following section he states Goblins and Wild Wolves. (He seems to have forgot the wargs or included them with the wolves.) Later in the battle he states "There a host of wargs came ravening and with them the came the bodyguard of Bolg."... Thorin attacks the wolf riding goblins.... So, yes, maybe we will discover PJ made the decision not to use them for what he thought was potential confusion. However, I don't think it was necessary to remove them as anyone familiar with the book expects them.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Dec 23 2014, 1:23am)
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Dec 23 2014, 1:16am
Post #33 of 44
(308 views)
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Now she's a homeless stray. With any luck, she'll eat Alfrid.
__________________ Gold is the strife of kinsmen, and fire of the flood-tide, and the path of the serpent. (Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Dec 23 2014, 1:41am
Post #34 of 44
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He would probably shack up with her as he is used to living with a pig.
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Dec 23 2014, 2:56am
Post #35 of 44
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All I can think of reading through this thread
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is all the complaints about the CGI we would have had if there was a whole army of computer generated wargs....
Silverlode Want a LOTR Anniversary footer of your own? Get one here! "Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Dec 23 2014, 3:12am
Post #36 of 44
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True, but we already have whole cgi armies of goblins, dwarves, elves.
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Maybe the EE appendices will go over all of their planning for the battle and the decisions they made.
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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Dec 23 2014, 3:29am
Post #37 of 44
(282 views)
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I've seen enough wargs, they were plentiful in AUJ. The one Bolg was riding looked really good…terrifying!
The flames of war are upon you..
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Dec 23 2014, 4:26am
Post #38 of 44
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Second, and more serious thoughts on this...
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In the book, the Wargs "treed" the Company when they found them in their meeting clearing, and then sat beneath the trees discussing what to do about them. They are separate from normal wolves, because they can speak. The Goblins come out of the mountain after dark and team up with the wargs. They come to the battle to take revenge for the death of the Great Goblin (riding wolves) and the Wargs come along, presumably because they are angry at the Company's escape, and for Gandalf's fire. In AUJ, the talking Wargs which team up with the goblins never appear. Azog apparently has a bounty out on Thorin and is notified by the Great Goblin when he captures him. He thereafter takes over the chasing and revenge duties for all goblin and orc-kind. Azog serves Sauron, so instead of a battle made up only of various groups that the dwarves managed to annoy or inconvenience on their travels, the Battle of the Five Armies is basically the prelude to the War of the Ring. Bolg does apparently have some goblins attached to his army, but I don't know if they're from the Misty Mountains. Perhaps not. In the end, the Misty Mountain contingent doesn't come to the movie battle. Azog does instead, and so his army replaces the goblins and Wargs (and indeed, he is himself a Warg rider, even if most of his army is not). The only wargs we see in the movie appear to come from Dol Guldur...and we see a brief glimpse of some of them when Gandalf enters the trap there, I believe.
Silverlode Want a LOTR Anniversary footer of your own? Get one here! "Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Dec 23 2014, 5:01am
Post #39 of 44
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Good points and I won't ask you the meaning of "serious" ;)
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Sometimes, the distinction between wild wolves and wargs is either lost or confused. The difference between Brian Griffin and the neighbors dog. Azog, as you note, had wargs at Dol Guldur, so at least those warg riders should have appeared at the battle. Hopefully the EE battle design discussions will reveal their conceptual planning.
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Dec 23 2014, 5:32am
Post #40 of 44
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Or what the meaning of "is" is...?
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My first post in the thread was merely a tongue-in-cheek observation that wargs would have given more room for complaint about CGI. This one, actually having involved some thought on the topic, was less flippant and therefore more serious in intent.
Silverlode Want a LOTR Anniversary footer of your own? Get one here! "Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Dec 23 2014, 10:26am
Post #41 of 44
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That goes straight to the top of my EE wishlist!
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Please, PJ, please!
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Bladerunner
Gondor
Dec 23 2014, 12:40pm
Post #43 of 44
(242 views)
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yes, I would have preferred a classical interpretation of the fifth army.
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An army of wargs with wolves (and perhaps a werewolf or two) would have been cooler than a second army of orcs. And speaking of that second army, in the end, I could not find a compelling reason for the existence of both Azog and Bolg in the films. Bolg seemed superfluous. I think Azog should have been left as the back story as written by Tolkien, then Bolg could have been the primary antagonist to be killed by Beorn of course...
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Faleel
Rohan
Dec 26 2014, 12:36am
Post #44 of 44
(201 views)
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The Warg theme is in Sons of Durin.
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