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Plurmo
Rohan
Jan 2 2015, 4:37am
Post #101 of 109
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Sure Gandalf would know the uses of moths!
I do appreciate your insights, especially the ones in the last paragraph. I also understand Narya as acting more on people. The Elven Rings have a purpose of preservation and sometimes preservation requires mobilization.
Ring of Fire, Flame of Anor, that's the Flame of Anar, the Sun, and Narya reveres the idea of sunlight, or sunfire in water:
"But by Anar the waters of the Outer Sea were made hot and glowed with coloured fire, and Valinor had light for a while after the passing of Arien."
Well, at least it does in my mind.
I conjecture that Narya is the Ring of Ulmo. Unlike the other Valar, Ulmo is actively working in Middle-earth under the constrains he explained in his "secret whisper" speech to Tuor (Pg 39 - first paragraph - Unfinished Tales - wich I consider to be the most important of all texts regarding the fight against Evil in Middle-earth proper. It is also, despite coming from a most mighty Vala, very moving, because what he speaks mostly about, in a very frank manner, is the extent of his own diminishment. The contrast with Galadriel's stronger than the foundations of the Earth speech is very telling.)
The Sun is a sign of the awakening of Men. Ulmo chose Tuor to start a bloodline with the mission of keeping hope alive in Middle-earth. That very Red (as Narya) bloodline will be there when Ulmo is withdrawn, so that, for example, when Gandalf, the hand that wears Narya, is taken from the Fellowship, it is Aragorn and then Faramir, both of the Tuor bloodline, that gives support to Frodo on his way to Mordor.
But the finding of the One Ring, the formation of the Fellowship and its actions till it causes Gollum and the Ring to fall into Orodruin's Fire is a very conspiratorial endeavour, slow and secret. When Ulmo was forced to retreat he chose to fight the Enemy using the other possibility of water, namely the penetrating through rifts and breeches, such as the Moria halls and tunnels, the Morgul Vale and the Cirith Ungol, but also such as secret conspiracies, like the almost twenty years in the making conspiracy started by Meriadoc, which eventually got unmasked after the bath at crickhollow, being the seed of the Fellowship of the Ring.
I think that Gandalf is benefited from intuitions passed on to him by Narya as a guide to better understand the networks of peoples around him and how to coordinate their actions in the fight against Sauron. Narya helps Gandalf to see through the Fog of War and take the fog out of the sight of those around him, as you stated. It is a proactive Ring, just like Ulmo is a proactive Vala. It works on people more than on places. Narya builds a resistance movement. It amplifies the already strong natural qualities of Olorin in understanding and healing hearts, so he can lead this movement.
Certainly Ulmo had nothing to do with the making of Narya, but as I assume that every natural power in Arda is drawn from a Vala in principle and since Ulmo has an active will in Middle-earth, I suppose it is according to that will that a Ring drawing power from him would perform.
"One Ring to find them"
As stated by CuriousG, "the One Ring has some agency." Since the One already carries a part of Sauron's spirit (or potency, or mojo,) perhaps whatever we normally attribute to the Master and Wearer of the One Ring (as declared in the Ring's Poem,) we could attribute, in a lesser measure, to the One Ring itself.
Since found by Bilbo, along its journey the One Ring encountered Narya (several times), Vilya and Nenya. Perhaps that was part of his agency: to find them all, try to bring them, and later give to his Master an intuition about the identity and present situation of the wearers of the Elven Rings and of their strengths and weaknesses.
If that was the case, then maybe while the Ringwraiths were trying to find it, the One Ring was himself trying to find the three instead, so there could be a conflict of interest betweem the Ringwraiths' mission and the One Ring's. The Ring wants to be found, but it also has a directive to find the Elven Rings that it passes to his bearer, who accomplishes it or not according to his strength. Maybe it caused Gollum to go after the goblin imp because it felt Narya, but Gollum wouldn't go much far, so he abandoned him.
Even after the many encounters between the One and Narya, because of what I said above, I would consider the possibility that Narya is so secretive, that the One wouldn't be able to trully read it no matter how close (in fact the opposite happens, when Narya's wearer throws the One into the fire thus revealing it with surety.)
And if The One is trully perceptive and sees the other Rings as their subjects and perhaps rivals, then while falling into the fires of Mount Doom his last thought would had been how Narya the conspirator got him, the same way Sauron would be thinking about Olorin and his schemming and Ulmo and his unyielding persistence.
PS: I think the Nine Rings are with Sauron and that is the way he has full control of the Ringwraiths, otherwise it would be a serious danger to send them to waylay a possibly powerful holder of the One Ring.
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jan 2 2015, 6:51pm
Post #102 of 109
(456 views)
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I can always count on you, Plurmo.
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For a deeper and more creative analysis. None of this even crossed my mind, and, though I don't know if I agree or not, I find it all fascinating, purely fascinating. I'm so glad to have you join us!
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jan 5 2015, 2:14am
Post #103 of 109
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From what Gandalf says about not leaving 'instantly' and also about having his journey be natural-appearing and unremarked upon, it feels like Gandalf is thinking one step ahead and worried more about pursuit and confirmation of some strangeness about Frodo's departure. We discussed in last week's chapter - excellent questions posed by Lurker - about how Gandalf's comings and goings might pose a risk to the Shire. To expand about what we said already, I also feel that JRRT used his beloved geography there, here as a method of concealment. The Shire is not placed in a silent, unused corner of Middle-earth, but one stated to be in the area of ancient crossroads, and having to be passed on the way to the sacred Grey Havens. Thus do doughty Dwarves as well as Elves with grace pass by, allowing for all sorts of magic and mystery to be accepted (even if not approved of) in the Shire. A little flibbit of magic, of Wizard's fireworks will just not stir so much comment: but just try setting off a magic firecracker in the Iron Hills and see how much its noticed! So my feel is that having taken the trouble to create this little green backwater, yet one that is not unused to the strange and mysteriously puissant, it almost feels like one is rather cleverly hiding the effects of a magic ring in plain sight. And maybe this is why Gandalf feels like Frodo may be safer where he is, not rushing away into the larger and colder world. Without the information of 'Shire' and 'Baggins', its a damned good device. Of course once the cat is out of the bag (sorry, Cats, there I go again! ) concealment is forgone. But I can see that 'disappearing' would be even more talk, and would spread and be heard by many ears. -Brethil
An interesting thought! Now, I might be imagining things (very likely), but is there the tiniest hint to something similar to this in UT? Or am I simply mistaking a past thread in which you (as usual) channeled JRRT with little difficulty? Either way--I'm in agreement, and think Gandalf is much more concerned with the 'big' picture and keeping the status quo intact in the eyes of Outsiders looking into the Shire. Of course, Frodo's sudden disappearance would cause trouble for locals, too (as they mention several times), but Gandalf knows that the danger posed to Frodo from within is dwarfed by that from without. - Cats
You compliment me hugely here m'dear! 
I love this summation that you make: I bolded the key bit above. The danger as he knows lies without, and those who bring it with them. A conjurer's trick here, smoke and mirrors for those watching the Shire from the Outside.
(Now that I think of it, I can easily imagine Gandalf giving a long monologue explaining all of this--sort of like at the end of RotK, when he's talking everyone's heads off about his worries after-the-fact. -Cats)
And another compliment, which I take very much to heart! 
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jan 5 2015, 2:24am
Post #105 of 109
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"So I think there is critical character building here versus plot direction issues." Good point, Breth. It's essential for me as a reader to get to know Frodo before he embarks on his quest, so his in-story stalling for time, while baffling from a plot POV, makes a lot of sense that Tolkien is stalling for time to tell us more about Frodo: who he is, and what's at stake. Bilbo was somewhat clownish at the beginning of his adventure: running off without a handkerchief (or whatever it was) and aghast at his vulgarity in a humorous, silly way. Frodo is deeper, sadder, and not to be laughed at in his departure. This chapter helps set up the epic tone for the whole book, so plot meanderings can serve another literary purpose. Yes, very little clowning on Frodo's part: that early clownishness of Bilbo doesn't disappear but is taken over by Pippin. Frodo has flashes of humor but they are always drier...I do adore that "I don't carry water in my pockets" exchange, and Frodo rolling Pippin out of his blankets without a word of warning. But okay, to touch another topic here on a tangent: I feel like that thinking fox never fits in. It's as out of place as a big green alien ship landing with green aliens shooting off lasers guns. And if we are going to know the thoughts of a fox in the Shire, then by golly, I want to know what Shadowfax was thinking at the gate of Minas Tirith when he and Gandalf faced the Witch-king, but does the author tell us?! No. Not fair! [rant over--for now]
You know how I love the Fox! I feel he's just the right touch of the woodland faerie, connecting Th and LOTR: plus a valuable glimpse that WE are but small beings in a wide, wide world. We have no ideas of the thoughts of the world around us. I think what began as the fox in this sense culminates spontaneously in the Ents as his real heart-felt yet unheard voice of nature. So don't diss my fox.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jan 5 2015, 2:32am
Post #106 of 109
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Placing the Shire in an abandoned part of the North and West does seem like a cozy hiding place. Overlooked and understated, it allows the magical to creep in at the edges of a well-ordered society. Perhaps we are all stuck in our own Shire, and our flights of fantasy are the adventures that allow us to transcend its bounds. Wonderfully stated Rem. Living on the other side of The Hedge - one that we don't know is there. To quote film-Gimli, Aye. I could do that.
Yes. It calls to mind the discussion where Gandalf said Frodo was 'meant' to have the Ring. He always seems to know more than he lets on, but as our 'Affectionate Scrutiny' comes into play, we realise he is not so omniscient as he appears to be. However, I think that is one of the traits that makes Gandalf the Grey so likeable-- he is the magical fatherly guide who has all the answers, and makes us feel safe and secure adventuring along with him. Oddly it would seem that this powerful ally would accompany a child in TH, but he doesn't seem to have any of that air of assurance in the book. Of course, later we learn that he is far from the perfect ideal he might appear to be, but by then we have conquered much of the tale and can soldier on through the rest, much like Frodo.
Yes, as we become stronger and wiser, we can accept a hero like Gandalf with slightly clayish feet. Progressions of wisdom, and challenge.(To get a touch of tangent-itis, I can see how D and D creator Gary Gygax synthesized the whole 'level up' concept while working on a nuts-and-bolts way to enjoy Middle-earth style gaming. LOTR has that sense of progression, and even TH has Bilbo proceeding in that type of fashion.)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 5 2015, 7:45am
Post #107 of 109
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Yes, I'm thinking ,"rationalization" too! //
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~~~~~~
"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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cats16
Half-elven
Jan 5 2015, 8:08am
Post #108 of 109
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I started writing a couple of posts on this topic, but couldn't really get any further than where I got earlier in the thread.
It feels like there is some unknown force, which Frodo seems to recognize as a driving factor that will, on that inevitable day, make him go through with it. Nothing outside of him, of course: it's all within his mind, and how he is juggling the past (romanticizing Bilbo's adventures), the present (trying to hold onto the brief time of normalcy he has left in the Shire) and the future (the great uncertainty of what lies ahead, and the lack of potential for anything things to remain what they are/were).
Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jan 6 2015, 1:39am
Post #109 of 109
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Once again, wonderfully stated. //
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I started writing a couple of posts on this topic, but couldn't really get any further than where I got earlier in the thread.
It feels like there is some unknown force, which Frodo seems to recognize as a driving factor that will, on that inevitable day, make him go through with it. Nothing outside of him, of course: it's all within his mind, and how he is juggling the past (romanticizing Bilbo's adventures), the present (trying to hold onto the brief time of normalcy he has left in the Shire) and the future (the great uncertainty of what lies ahead, and the lack of potential for anything things to remain what they are/were).
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