|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Konrad S
Lorien
Dec 21 2014, 2:21pm
Post #1 of 12
(1636 views)
Shortcut
|
I have read a lot and started to wonder who own Orcrist in the First Age. In The Hobbit say that glamdring (Gandalf's sword) owned by Turgon king of Gondolin and Orcrist (Thorin sword) was owned by someone high ranking person close to the king and there are 10 precious i know.
Duilin,Egalmoth,Rog,Galdor.Tuor,Maeglin,Ecthelion,Glorfindel,Penlod and Salgant
This i know, Duilin had a bow,Egalmoth also have a bow but he have a sword to but it was curved orcrist nor curved,Rog had a mace and a heavy shield,Galdor had a club or a spear, Tuor was a man and he had a axe and hr came after all other,Maeglin probally had hes fathers sword Anguirel,Glorfindel died outside the city in the mountains.
But penlod,ecthelion or salgant can have it, the others, I am convinced of out duilin why would he dont have a sword, Egalmoth had a sword and a bow.
Ecthelion died in the fountain but he lost hes sword before and soon he kill gothmog with hes helm. And Ecthelion was higher ranked than salgant and penlod. And in The hobbit movie they say than orcrist have kill many goblings and ecthelion kill many goblings and orcs. I think ecthelion have it but i not completely convinced hope you can convince me completely.
I Really want to know who had it and ( I bad at English sorry)
|
|
|
emre43
Rohan
Dec 22 2014, 8:12am
Post #2 of 12
(1481 views)
Shortcut
|
owned by Ecthelion myself, so...
|
|
|
Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Dec 22 2014, 3:35pm
Post #3 of 12
(1454 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I thought Echthelion, but others have different ideas
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Here are some:
Here:
Here:
Here:
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Dec 22 2014, 5:17pm
Post #4 of 12
(1460 views)
Shortcut
|
... it seems a bit speculative to raise such early descriptions from The Book of Lost Tales and use these passages or details (never revised in detail again) to then consider, or especially to then rule out, who owned a sword Tolkien had not yet invented -- at least at the time he wrote the early Fall of Gondolin I mean.
In my opinioin at least an asterisk or two should follow any conclusion based on this early FOG version, although I understand that if you toss it all out as 'Uncanon' then you are left with less to work with, and could arguably be throwing out some details that Tolkien might have retained.
Did one of the Gondolin lords really bear a curved blade for example? Maybe. One did so in the 1920 FOG, but in general (and if I recall correctly) bent or curved weapons seem usually reserved for Orcs and enemies from the East. That said it seems 'exceptional' even here in the early version, on the other hand.
Sorry. Boring pedantic answer from me yet again, I know 
In the early FOG Idril could not be dissuaded from bearing a sword*... and if Turgon had a mate to Glamdring, maybe later on Tolkien would have... although granted it would have to be famous for killing many orcs too, so that might have to be worked in, if possible... or maybe not, with respect to this idea in general.
*not that Tolkien would have necessarily retained this detail in any updated version 
(This post was edited by Elthir on Dec 22 2014, 5:25pm)
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Dec 22 2014, 6:49pm
Post #5 of 12
(1450 views)
Shortcut
|
(...) In the early FOG Idril could not be dissuaded from bearing a sword*... and if Turgon had a mate to Glamdring, maybe later on Tolkien would have... although granted it would have to be famous for killing many orcs too, so that might have to be worked in, if possible... or maybe not, with respect to this idea in general.
By the way, this is the reason given for the goblins of The Hobbit knowing Orcrist at once: "It had killed hundreds of goblins in its time, when the fair Elves of Gondolin hunted them in the hills or did battle before their walls." And later with respect to Glamdring: "The goblins just called it Beater, and hated it worse than Biter if possible."
So they knew and hated both swords, and seemingly hated Glamdring more than Orcrist 'if possible'.
Okay, and that said, according to The Fall of Gondolin as it stood in the 1920s, it seems that Turgon only fought at one point, along with other Gnomes, to help clear the area near his tower; and soon after he went up into that tower and ultimately perished in its fall. Idril was presumanly fighting sporadic marauders with a sword, again at least at one point in the tale as well.
And while not impossible, it seems a bit odd for me to have Turgon himself, with Beater, hunting goblins in the hills about Gondolin in the years before the fall of the city. Turgon is important, obviously, and is accordingly protected during the Fall of Gondolin, watching from his tower for some of the battle.
I'm just sayin'... and possibly forgetting something while I say it
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Dec 23 2014, 4:39am
Post #6 of 12
(1421 views)
Shortcut
|
|
to continue this discussion with me...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
... the point above was, I'm not sure (yet) just what made Glamdring so well known as a hammer of foes among goblins, at least at the time Tolkien wrote The Hobbit. In the early tale Gondolin was built after the battle of numberless tears and the swords Orcrist and Glamdring were said to be made in Gondolin for the goblin wars (Elrond noted this)...
... thus we (seemingly) cannot easily say they were used to defeat many goblins before the building of Gondolin...
... and checking the early FOG again, when Turgon actually comes down to fight, the emphasis on the enemies is rather many Balrogs, and a Drake... I mean Goblins could have been there too, but it's hardly emphasized.
Again, is Turgon himself out hunting goblins in the hills before the great battle, giving Glamdring its hated fame among goblins? Doesn't seem likely to me. Orcrist has a better chance of cleaving goblins in the hills before the fall of the city, I think, but Beater seems just as well known as Biter in any case.
Although I feel like I'm missing something here!
Anyway back to you Elthir... I await your response with great excitement. Yawn.
|
|
|
Konrad S
Lorien
Dec 23 2014, 5:03pm
Post #7 of 12
(1407 views)
Shortcut
|
Okay what I understand, do not you think that the early facts are accurate to Tolkien probably have changed in their thinking, I think it is difficult to change the facts just because it can be a little difficult to keep up with the later writings iand you prtar about that elves do not have curved swords most enemies but what I have read and way it is not uncommon for elves have curved swords. I think we can not utsluta bunch of facts just because it was written 95 years ago. I do not think Idril had orcrist if that's what you mean by the difficult text, she is not a lord of Gondolin but she is close to the King and thanks Rembrethil'll look into those threads and thanks emre43 and thanks elthir for information even if it has been struggling to DTE for me a bit.
|
|
|
Konrad S
Lorien
Dec 23 2014, 5:05pm
Post #8 of 12
(1409 views)
Shortcut
|
even if it has tangled into it for me a little*
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Dec 23 2014, 7:29pm
Post #9 of 12
(1411 views)
Shortcut
|
Well, in the early Fall of Gondolin the one bent sword was noted, along with 'now none else of the Noldoli bore curved words' so, in my opinion, the implication is that this was rare among the Gnomes. In later texts, Tolkien seems to often (enough) note that curved or bent blades were used by Orcs or Eastern folk... thus (I ask myself) why note this if curved swords were usual among Elves and Western folk too?
I admit it's thin, but on the other hand with respect to descriptions, I'm not sure I recall curved blades among the Elves apart from the films, which could easily be pure invention there.
With respect to the old version of The Fall of Gondolin, Christopher Tolkien notes (introduction to Unfinished Tales): "It is written in the exteme archaistic style that my father employed at that time, and it inevitably embodies conceptions out of keeping with the world of The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion in its published form."
Okay but aside from obvious conceptions that are out of keeping with JRRT's later imagination, or arguably so, there's really no easy checklist here. And what about certain details: was Penlod really the tallest Gnome for instance? In the later conception Turgon is said to be taller than all the Children of Eru save Thingol; and in a later text, his brother Argon was taller still, although slain before Tuor arrives in Gondolin.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree about our approaches to early works. I'm not against employing all the very early details that are still 'arguably' true, as long as we acknowledge the 'mixing' being done. But I also can't help but question the idea of using these early descriptions to try and answer a question about a sword that Tolkien hadn't even invented yet.
And yes I realize Idril is not a lord of Gondolin but if I recall correctly it's not stated anywhere that Orcrist belonged to a lord of Gondolin. Anyway my initial intention behind raising Idril was to illustrate how I would approach the question: with an asterisk to help mark the textual scenario we are dealing with here... in other words I wasn't seriously raising her as a candidate, but I used the asterisk portion to support my opinion about asterisks.
But then I began to wonder if Idril could actually be a possibility, but only in the sense that Glamdring itself doesn't seem to get that much time hammering goblins, and yet it is still famed among the goblins. That is, if we take what is said about both swords in The Hobbit and compare the actual tale of The Fall of Gondolin as it existed when Tolkien wrote The Hobbit...
... Idril's use of a sword among marauding foes, possibly goblins, doesn't seem all that less than Turgon's relatively limited use of his sword against goblins -- or at least both descriptions don't really speak that much about how many goblins were slain by each sword during the fall of the city... and yet Glamdring has this notable reputation in any case!
In other words, Turgon was not relatively very active in the fighting during the fall of the city. Neither was Idril, but still, if that much made Glamdring famous... why not Idril's use of her sword too. Then again I am sort of mixing things up myself (!) as I'm more wondering if Tolkien could claim he meant Orcist, after the fact.
That's why I'm confusing me, and probably others 
Another recourse is to say Turgon himself went out hunting goblins with Glamdring before the fall of the city. Not impossible I guess. If Ocrist did too I would probably agree it was born by some high lord of Gondolin, or that is, I'm not going to delve into the matter of Eldarin women with respect to hunting and war -- gleaned from yet another text written decades after the early Fall of Gondolin -- to comment on the 'possibilty' or not, of Idril here.
Or we could imagine that, despite the early account which seems to emphasize Balrogs and a Drake, that Turgon yet killed a notable number of goblins in his one foray into battle.
And all this is, confusingly I admit, really only mostly wondering what was in Tolkien's mind at a given time (when he wrote The Hobbit). In revision to the Gondolin tale, if JRRT wants to 'support' the passages in The Hobbit more directly, he can easily do so in a number of ways.
And all that said while I still think I'm forgetting something
(This post was edited by Elthir on Dec 23 2014, 7:38pm)
|
|
|
Konrad S
Lorien
Dec 23 2014, 8:18pm
Post #10 of 12
(1397 views)
Shortcut
|
Okay but I still think than one of Gondolins 11 lords had the sword and I feel very confident like 85% but we not quite agree on that thing . But I think ecthelion lord of the foutain the most evidence supports him but if one of Gondolin lords had orcrist who do you think would have Orcrist elthir. Ps Your texts are awfully complex, carved XD.
Ps Grrrrrrr
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Dec 23 2014, 9:47pm
Post #11 of 12
(1392 views)
Shortcut
|
... sometimes, after a few days or even hours, I read my own posts and wonder what in the world I was trying to say. Anyway, Ecthelion seems a popular choice. According to the revised Fall of Gondolin (early 1950s, see Of Tuor And His Coming To Gondolin in Unfinished Tales):
"And high and noble as was Elemmakil, greater and more lordly was Ecthelion, Lord of the Fountains, at that time Warden of the Great Gate. All in silver was he clad, and upon his shining helm there was set a spike of steel pointed with a diamond; and as his esquire took his shield it shimmered as if it were bedewed with drops of rain, that were indeed a thousand studs of crystal."
Is this a good chance to describe Ecthelion's sword (or at least that he had one), especially if he bore the ultimately famous Biter? Clad in silver, helm, shield... yet no mention of any sword. In notes to the same text, when we meet Turgon his (Turgon's) sword was to be described.
Well, I know... silence means nothing here. But still I think some might forget that the reader does at least meet the mighty Ecthelion at this point, in the new version. So for what it's worth, there's that.
Let me ask you a question: if you were writing the updated version of this story who would you give the sword to? If we follow the old version of the tale Ecthelion does some mighty work with 'his sword', but yet his most famous slaying of Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs, is done without his sword...
... but probably an argument could be made either way, with respect to what is 'better' here: Ecthelion not using a famed sword for his most famous slaying! Or that he never bore the ultimately famed sword in the first place.
Or that Ecthelion borrowed Idril's sword in a moment of desperate need and slew one hundred goblins with it!
Sorry.
If you like please grrr loudly in my direction again... and perhaps I'll fall off this fence I'm sitting on.
For now I'll guess Elemmakil bore Orcrist
|
|
|
Konrad S
Lorien
Dec 24 2014, 6:02am
Post #12 of 12
(1416 views)
Shortcut
|
I still think ecthelion had orcrist that poem need not describe all the weapons he swung and I do not think a captain used a legendary sword, I think it swing by a high lord not an ordinary captain and ecthelion may not kill Gothmog with his sword but it was golblings and orcs who remembered it so well not Balrog and I do not think he had time to borrow it of Idril and I do not think she had it, though it's brother after all if you see them as lords or not. Ecthelion kill many orcs with his sword and the first 3 barogerna too but hen lost it then. But he should not shield huh so legendary that I can find hadde not House of the foutain cleat some shields them live large two handed sword also knives and less one-handed swords and wore blue cloaks and sliver armor
|
|
|
|
|
