Our Sponsor Sideshow Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Arkenstone = Silmaril?

Gianna
Rohan


Dec 20 2014, 8:28pm

Post #1 of 14 (1396 views)
Shortcut
Arkenstone = Silmaril? Can't Post

I did a short essay thing on this topic some time ago. https://docs.google.com/...FZc/edit?usp=sharing (Again, help on making a clickable link within the text, so that the actual link doesn't have to appear, would be appreciated!)
Since writing it, I have revised my opinion slightly - if when the Arkenstone came into the story Tolkien still wasn't really meaning The Hobbit to be happening in Middle-earth, he may have simply thought to do something similar to the Silmarils without the Arkenstone actually being one. Still, I'd think that if that were the case, he'd have changed it in later editions (along with his revisions to the Gollum part, giving the Ring a more malevolent power over Gollum).

What are your thoughts on the topic?

~There's some good left in this world. And it's worth fighting for.~


Elthir
Grey Havens

Dec 21 2014, 2:35pm

Post #2 of 14 (1144 views)
Shortcut
literary borrowing [In reply to] Can't Post

Your linked essay seems to be lacking the linguistic argument (which argues for similarity), but it also seems to be lacking the detail that the Dwarves cut and shaped the Arkenstone...

... in my opinion a major hurdle to the argument that (again in my opinion) no one has yet to jump well enough.

JD Rateliff writes a good article on this, but I don't think he uncovered any text or marginal note, for example, that shows Tolkien even questioning whether the Arkenstone might be a Silmaril (not that anyone said he did in the first place, or that Tolkien necessarily needed to note it on paper).

John Rateliff notes the sense of finality (that the Silmarils were lost) in the 1926 Sketch of the Mythology and various versions of the 1930 Quenta Noldorinwa...


Quote
'Despite the sense of finality in the passages just quoted, Tolkien had in fact changed his mind four times in the previous fifteen years about the holy jewel's fate...' J. Rateliff



I think that's a rather notable 'despite,' because the Sketch and the 1930 Qenta are still relatively close in date to the writing of The Hobbit.


Quote
'Just as the sword of Turgon King of Gondolin had somehow survived... it is thus more than possible that Tolkien was playing in The Hobbit with the idea of having one of Feanor's wondrous jewels reappear,...' J. Rateliff



But 'more than possible' isn't saying much in my opinion.

No doubt Tolkien changed his mind enough times, so the implication here seems to be that Tolkien might change his mind about this finality once again. Okay possible, but is there textual evidence to show that he did for his new story? Another implication appears to be that since an item like Turgon's sword survived, maybe one of the Silmarils might too. Well again, that only goes so far I think.

A further element of the evidence appears to be the word arkenstone -- but as Rateliff himself notes, this word fits for 'precious or holy jewel', and is found in Beowulf and The Christ, for examples in Old English. Tolkien's use of the term is fitting in both cases, but this 'connection' is nothing new at this point, as the Old English snippets of the Silmarillion writings were published some time ago now in The History of Middle-Earth series.

With respect to possibly new information gleaned from drafts for The Hobbit, Rateliff notes that the Arkenstone evolved out of the Gem of Girion*, which was a gem given by Girion of Dale to the Dwarves (although it is not told how Girion got this gem in any case). And as for the compared descriptions (how both jewels looked, or dealt with light), even Rateliff notes than any similarities here do not prove that the Arkenstone was intended as a Silmaril.

I realize Rateliff's commentary, however one takes it, hinges on a combination of things, and to be fair, it should be read in full, but here we have jools that an author wished to set apart as particularly notable and beautiful, so to my mind even a measure of borrowing of description would not be unexpected.

Some measure of 'literary borrowing' (or a better term that I can't think of at the moment) does not necessarily make the arkenstone a Silmaril, and I think we are still wanting textual evidence -- at least something direct I mean -- that Tolkien was actually playing with the notion of making this gem a Silmaril specifically, as there doesn't seem to be any confirming text or note in the draft stages of The Hobbit (which would be new to the case, so to speak).

I've seen a number of varied arguments on line, but so far I don't buy the idea myself.

*edit: at this stage in the draft material, even the Gem of Girion (given by Men to the Dwarves) was described as shining with its own inner light before being cut and fashioned.


(This post was edited by Elthir on Dec 21 2014, 2:48pm)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Dec 21 2014, 2:52pm

Post #3 of 14 (1093 views)
Shortcut
When the batteries run low [In reply to] Can't Post

Isn't it an *essential* nature of the Silmarils that they had the light of the Two Trees in them and radiated that light? If so, a Silmaril in Erebor should have been illuminating Smaug's lair, not waiting in the dark to merely reflect light like a crystal ball, which is what happened when Bilbo found it initially. That indicates to me that it's not from the original stock of 3 Silmarils.


Elthir
Grey Havens

Dec 21 2014, 2:55pm

Post #4 of 14 (1091 views)
Shortcut
P.S. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
but it also seems to be lacking the detail that the Dwarves cut and shaped the Arkenstone...



By which I mean your linked essay does not try to explain this matter (if in fact the Arkenstone was a Silmaril), despite that your essay includes the detail in a quotation of course.

And technically: cut and fashioned I should say.


(This post was edited by Elthir on Dec 21 2014, 2:58pm)


Elthir
Grey Havens

Dec 21 2014, 3:01pm

Post #5 of 14 (1097 views)
Shortcut
the Arkenstone appears to have had an inner light... [In reply to] Can't Post

... before being cut and fashioned to reflect light as well Smile


Gianna
Rohan


Dec 21 2014, 3:28pm

Post #6 of 14 (1084 views)
Shortcut
Thank you for such a detailed reply! [In reply to] Can't Post

Your point about the Dwarves cutting and fashioning the Arkenstone is a very good one. Since writing the essay, things like that have cropped up every now and then and made me doubt a bit, which is a part of why I posted here! I appreciate your thoughtful answer.

I now feel more like the similarity between the jewels is probably no more than a coincidence; but I will always be open to the possibility unless something conclusive comes up, one way or the other. (As I said, this sort of speculation fascinates me!)

Where can I find Rateliff's entire article?

~There's some good left in this world. And it's worth fighting for.~


Elthir
Grey Havens

Dec 22 2014, 2:25am

Post #7 of 14 (1054 views)
Shortcut
Oops, sorry, forgot to make the source clear... [In reply to] Can't Post

... JDR's look at the Arkenstone/Silmaril matter appears in The History of The Hobbit. I think there's a newer, shorter version of his book coming out (or already recently published), but I don't have the new version.

It's in the original two volume edition for sure.


(This post was edited by Elthir on Dec 22 2014, 2:26am)


Arveldis
Rivendell


Dec 22 2014, 11:00pm

Post #8 of 14 (1034 views)
Shortcut
Intersting essay! [In reply to] Can't Post

My comments have already been stated by posters above, so I won't reiterate and bore you with reading the same thing again. Wink I will say that it looked to be very well-thought-out and researched and was a good read. Too bad Tolkien can't answer all of our theories and questions, huh? But then we wouldn't have anything talk/write about...Crazy


I can help with this:

Quote
(Again, help on making a clickable link within the text, so that the actual link doesn't have to appear, would be appreciated!)


First, select the area of text you want to contain the link. If you reply to posts in Markup style (which is available in Internet Explorer and Firefox, I believe), you should see a little image in the top right of your text box. It looks like a short link of chain and is to the right of the small image of a framed portrait. Click on the grey link and you should get a pop up box titled "Create a Link - [whatever browser you're using]." Put the full URL of the webpage you want to link to in the box and click "Submit."


If everything works, you should get a link looking like this. (If I were more creative I would have come up with a more interesting webpage. Alas, I'm not.) I hope this helps. Smile If it's not clear enough, there's always the TORn 201 guide which has directions on these sorts of things.


(This post was edited by Arveldis on Dec 22 2014, 11:03pm)


Elentari03
Rivendell

Dec 24 2014, 9:26am

Post #9 of 14 (1018 views)
Shortcut
Yes. [In reply to] Can't Post

Presumably the Arkenstone was "made" by Aule and is intimately tied to dwarvish mountain culture (and none other). The Silmarils must have the light of Yavanna's Two Trees (essentially the light of the world) in them and be fashioned by elf-hand. Although Feanor learned his skill from Aule, the creation and light-source of the two are different. In theory one could argue that the Arkenstone is to the dwarves what the Silmarils are to the elves, but that does not mean that the Arkenstone is a Silmaril (at least in my reading).


Aranarth
The Shire


Dec 24 2014, 3:32pm

Post #10 of 14 (1050 views)
Shortcut
Dwarven Silmaril. [In reply to] Can't Post

Elf's fashioned their powerful jewels out of something love (trees), then dwarves basically did the some thing by finding the heart of the mountain (something they loved with the same passion as elves loved trees). So it definitely could have.


PhantomS
Rohan


Dec 26 2014, 9:47pm

Post #11 of 14 (988 views)
Shortcut
Jewels are an Elf's best friend [In reply to] Can't Post

Feanor did not craft the Silmarils out of love- they were literally the apex of his craft, the extension of his spirit. He was the Silmarils, which is why he was completely angry that they were taken, and thenbefore that he was even angrier when the Valar suggested that he break the Silmarils to heal the Two Trees. the Silmarils were the greatest creation of hands and inflamed most people's desire to own them, hypnotizing them.

So the Silmarils were not really about love- Elves no matter what kind value nature, the starlight and the forests as well as the songs they sing. The Arkenstone is literally the beating heart of the Lonely Mountain- the Dwarves loved that crystal as it was unique and tied to their history.


Cillendor
Lorien


Dec 29 2014, 3:50pm

Post #12 of 14 (957 views)
Shortcut
I think perhaps this was the case initially. [In reply to] Can't Post

The Hobbit strikes me as a First-Age story retconned to the Third Age. Before Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings, there was no concept of different ages. As he developed the story of LOTR, he realized that the magic ring and the Necromancer were much more significant. The Necromancer was, in fact, Sauron, the lieutenant of Morgoth; and the magic ring was really a Ring of Power created by Sauron.

The Elvenking seems pretty clearly identifiable as Elu Thingol, though in this iteration he apparently wasn't killed by the Dwarves from the Ered Luin like he was in the published Silmarillion. The white gems are obviously the Nauglamír, and the Dwarves are said to be unrelated to Thrór because they weren't from the line of Dúrin.

It would also seem that this story would take place sometime after the Silmarili were all removed from Middle-earth, but prior to the fall of Beleriand (which may not have even happened at this state, since the Second and Third Ages didn't exist. So I think the Arkenstone was originally meant to be a Silmaril, but Tolkien changed his mind after writing LOTR. It is unfortunate that he never completed his revision of The Hobbit like he had planned. I imagine that many of these First-Age connections would've been retconned to match what is written in LOTR.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Dec 30 2014, 1:23pm

Post #13 of 14 (970 views)
Shortcut
The Elvenking [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The Elvenking seems pretty clearly identifiable as Elu Thingol, though in this iteration he apparently wasn't killed by the Dwarves from the Ered Luin like he was in the published Silmarillion. The white gems are obviously the Nauglamír, and the Dwarves are said to be unrelated to Thrór because they weren't from the line of Dúrin.



Tolkien states clearly in The Hobbit that the Elvenking who was betrayed by Dwarves was an earlier one, not the Elvenking who imprisons Thorin & Company. Thingol would have been the elf-king of ancient days, not the present Elvenking of Mirkwood.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Beleg Strongbow Cuthalion
Bree


Apr 8 2015, 8:06pm

Post #14 of 14 (793 views)
Shortcut
Very possible. [In reply to] Can't Post

I like your detailed essay. I never had the faintest idea that the Arkenstone could be the Simaril which Maedhros (I think) cast with himself into the earth! But now that I come to think about it, such a possibilty does exist as you say.

~"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” ― Gandalf the Grey~


 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.