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Glorfindela
Valinor
Dec 19 2014, 12:35am
Post #1 of 12
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A quick question about the Raven
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What was the significance of the Raven that flew up to Thorin when he was behind the barricade? (It was very well done, I think.) I assume this was in the book, but I read it so long ago that I don't remember this detail.
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arithmancer
Grey Havens
Dec 19 2014, 12:36am
Post #2 of 12
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So that Thorin knew Dain was on the way..
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Dec 19 2014, 12:38am
Post #3 of 12
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Thorin sends off a message by raven earlier
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To Dain, we later realise. The raven returning is the message back that Dain is on his way.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Dec 19 2014, 12:43am
Post #4 of 12
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Thank you to you and Spriggan for the quick response.
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Dec 19 2014, 12:46am
Post #5 of 12
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if you want to know more about ravens (frighteningly awesomely brilliant)
read Bernd Heinrich's Mind of the Raven and Ravens in Winter
mere crows can recognize faces of people who harass them...
"Judge me by my size, would you?" Max the Hobbit Husky.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Dec 19 2014, 1:15am
Post #6 of 12
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I think all the corvids are incredibly intelligent birds. I've never actually seen a Raven because I live in London and they prefer craggy cliff faces and the like (though there are a few at the Tower, with their own bodyguard, I believe). They are enormous birds compared with other members of the crow family. I have Jackdaws, Crows, Jays and Magpies near me, and my sister has a rescued Carrion Crow that is about 12 years old now (they have long lifespans). I'll look out for those books.
if you want to know more about ravens (frighteningly awesomely brilliant)
read Bernd Heinrich's Mind of the Raven and Ravens in Winter
mere crows can recognize faces of people who harass them...
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AshNazg
Gondor
Dec 19 2014, 10:52am
Post #7 of 12
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I can tell you all about the raven - his name is Roac
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In the book the company are standing on Ravenhill wondering where Smaug's gone. A thrush flies to them and tries talking but none of them understand it. Thorin says "If only it was a raven, there was an especially fine raven of old, called Carc, who used to bring us news". The thrush hears this, flies away and brings back an old, balding raven. He says "I am Roac, Son of Carc -blabla- Smaug is dead". Thorin then sends Roac to fly to the Iron Hills and tell Dain to come.
In the film it's less elaborate. We see Roac leave Erebor and fly North, shortly before Thorin tells Bilbo "don't underestimate dwarves" so we can assume Thorin sent the raven to tell Dain (I personally hope the EE will show him muttering quietly to the bird in Khuzdul, in a "Thorin's gone mad" kinda way) then, when we see the raven again, it has come back with Dain, so signals his arrival.
It's a recurring motif in the movie. We first hear Oin mention ravens in Bag End and later on the Carrock "the ravens are returning to the mountain". Also, much of the dwarves' armour - especially Thorin's - feature raven motifs. Not to mention the important events that take place on Ravenhill.
As a bird the raven is the symbol of Erebor in the movie, clearly a healthy population used to thrive there. But in other media, the raven can represent death (they often feast on corpses) and madness - think Edgar Allen Poe or Game of Thrones.
It's one of my favourite inclusions. I hope he and the thrush feature more in the EE.
(This post was edited by AshNazg on Dec 19 2014, 11:03am)
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Dec 19 2014, 11:42am
Post #8 of 12
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Roac does ring a bell from the book, and I must say it would have been good to see the book version! The corvids are good 'talkers'. I do remember Oin saying that the Ravens are returning to the mountain.
The crows in general often feed on carrion and small animals. They are great 'rubbish collectors', and must have been much more prevalent in towns and cities in the medieval period right up to until proper sewage systems were built. The streets were absolutely filthy at one time, with refuse of all sorts lying around. I believe they were welcome to people for that reason, as were species such as Red Kites in London…
(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Dec 19 2014, 11:44am)
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AshNazg
Gondor
Dec 19 2014, 1:14pm
Post #9 of 12
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Oh no. What if Dain teaches him the B word??
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In the EE it lands next to Thorin and them spouts filthy language to signify Dain's arrival. It sounds like something PJ would do...
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Dec 19 2014, 1:53pm
Post #10 of 12
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in Pennsylvania (just north of the Chesapeake Bay) we have a landscape that moves from the flat sands of the Chesapeake Bay, across the fall line to hills and farming valleys (very Hobbity, and originally inhabited by English and German colonists, which you can still see in place names like York, Dover, Lancaster and East Berlin), to the north and west where the hills get higher, craggier and more Fangornish (though they are old, worn down mountains, not westernish peaks).
Crows hang out in our farmish valleys, suburbs, and around the Bay. Farther north, in the hills, we have a breeding population of ravens, though they are not as common here as farther north or west. We also have another corvid, the flashy, loud bluejay.
Ravens like environments with wolves; they lead wolves to prey, then share in the kill, sometimes pulling Wolf's tail for sheer fun. Ravens are more cautious about coming to a carcass in a place with no wolves (they'd have some competition from other larger scavengers, with wolves present, no problem).
Many Native American legends have Raven at the center of them: he often is a subcreator, a Creator's helper, bringing light or freeing the first people.
"Judge me by my size, would you?" Max the Hobbit Husky.
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AshNazg
Gondor
Dec 19 2014, 2:09pm
Post #11 of 12
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Interesting mention of wolves, considering
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The movie has ravens and wargs. I'm sure nothing will come of that relationship, but it would be interesting to see, in a way.
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Dec 20 2014, 2:55am
Post #12 of 12
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Tolkien was channeling the old European viewpoint of the Big Bad Wolf, the concept of Wolf that comes from cultures that have agriculture and livestock, therefore wolves become competition for livestock (they have no concept of ownership of prey). There is a vastly different concept in North America where Native cultures did not have livestock, therefore Wolf is a role model you wish to emulate (good hunter, tight social structure, family, provider).
I'm extremely glad WETA did the wargs with no real resemblance to actual wolves, as we are dealing with mythic creatures here, not natural ones, and Tolkien's idea of Evil was that it corrupted the natural, the creatures of the Creator.
There is a more or less positive view of ravens in European myth (other than the Battle Crow Goddess of Death among the Celts, and she's not really negative, just powerful), as well as Native American. Unfortunately, wolves have vanished, so Raven and Wolf don't have the relationship they have in other parts of the world.
in Middle Earth, Raven and warg are decidedly on opposite sides of the war.
"Judge me by my size, would you?" Max the Hobbit Husky.
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