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Cirashala
Valinor
Dec 18 2014, 8:04pm
Post #26 of 45
(1441 views)
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I didn't hear run, but I most certainly heard "No..."
That's a great detail if he said that! Now I'm definitely going to bawl next viewing (the adrenaline was surging at that point, so my tears didn't flow til Bilbo told a dead Thorin to look at the eagles- I lost it then).
Of course, it didn't help that (through sheer boredom) due to the 8 pm showing sold out when we got there an hour before, and sitting through a lot of boring crap prior to the start, then 25 minutes of previews on top of that, I downed my entire water bottle before it even started and by that point I DESPERATELY needed to use the bathroom 
Either one could have been the reason why I didn't tear up for Fili and Kili- they're my favorite characters and have been since first reading prior to the announcement of the movies, so I fully expected to bawl.
Fili's death, though I knew about it, was still very shocking....that might have been the cause too. I think that it took a couple minutes to process it.
Might have had more impact had we not immediately shifted to another part of the battlefield....hope the EE fixes this....
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Dec 18 2014, 9:29pm
Post #27 of 45
(1410 views)
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He does yell "Run!" just before Azog stabs him.
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Cirashala
Valinor
Dec 18 2014, 9:44pm
Post #28 of 45
(1428 views)
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Now I KNOW I will bawl next viewing!!!! 
That's IT- that's the selflessness that made me fall for Fili and Kili in the books! He may not have defended Thorin by the sword, but he most certainly protected him (and Kili) to his dying breath!
Bravo, PJ. Bravo....
Now the question is- does Kili moving aside from his revenge against the fallen (his brother) to defend the living (Tauriel) also count as selfless?
Though I wish Kili had died defending Thorin, I actually thing the answer to the above is yes. Fili was gone- there's nothing he could have done to change that. His only action after that could have been to avenge him. He was also nearly hopelessly blocked from Thorin, both by terrain and by orcs. But he could have saved another life. Rather than pursue his own selfish revenge in a suicidal manner, he sacrificed himself to save the life of another person who never actually told him she loved him. (not while he was alive to hear it, at least).
In fact, I get the impression at the lake that he called her "my love", and she immediately responds with "My Lord Legolas" (he may not have understood my lord in Sindarin, but I'm sure he caught Legolas) and he took it as her saying her love was Legolas, not him. He certainly reacted that way, and looked like he felt rejected, but still impulsively gave her the stone and looked back when they left.
So, given that, and the fact that she hollered at him during the battle (I would think she indicated she was struggling, or trying to warn him- quite possibly both), I have a feeling that he made the selfless decision to stay his revenge for the fallen and aid the living, and it cost him his life.
After his uncle spent most of his life hating the elves for being unwilling to aid his people, the fact that Kili died defending an elf shows how Kili was unwilling to let revenge and hate rule him. And that, my dear friends, is a character trait of his straight from the book 
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MatthewJer18
Rohan
Dec 18 2014, 9:48pm
Post #29 of 45
(1405 views)
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I saw the film again today and can confirm that
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Fili does indeed tell the other dwarves to run before he dies.
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lionoferebor
Rohan
Dec 18 2014, 11:23pm
Post #30 of 45
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Exactly how I remember it too.
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He says to Kili, "No , you go search the lower halls. I got this."
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lionoferebor
Rohan
Dec 18 2014, 11:27pm
Post #31 of 45
(1383 views)
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It's the very last thing Fili says before Azog sticks him. As a matter of fact he barely gets the word out before he's stabbed.
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ecthelionsbeard
Lorien
Dec 19 2014, 6:58am
Post #32 of 45
(1368 views)
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I admire your analysis and love for these movies. They are great films 
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Dec 19 2014, 10:29am
Post #33 of 45
(1348 views)
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I had a feeling there was something missing.
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Cirashala
Valinor
Dec 20 2014, 1:00am
Post #35 of 45
(1371 views)
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Not sure about movie lines specifically
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However, I do know that David Salo is the language consultant for the set.
He has written a book on Sindarin- "A Gateway to Sindarin" that reads like a complete textbook on the language (well, as much as we can end up with lol)- including an English-Sindarin and Sindarin-English dictionary in the back, as well as a verb guide and a lexicon of Elvish names/place names
I actually own this book, and though I have not been able to dedicate the time required to learn a new language (even a made up one- its complexity is astounding!) it has been an invaluable resource for some words/phrases/names.
Funny story lol- I was trying to come up with a name for a fan fic a LONG time ago (that never actually got written once TH diverted my attention from LOTR)- and you wouldn't guess in a million years what name I came up with!
Given up yet? Wait for it.....
Tauriel- NO JOKE  Means "Daughter of the Forest" I was flabbergasted when I learned about the character in the movie! Must have ESP or something....
Also, in case you're interested- There is a blogger out there on wordpress called "Dwarrow Scholar" who has done the same with Neo-Khuzdul (only his work is free ). You can google the name, find the wordpress link, and check out his stuff. He even posted a new blog post recently clarifying for us all what Kili's "Amralime" means
(This post was edited by Cirashala on Dec 20 2014, 1:01am)
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marillaraina
Rohan
Dec 20 2014, 3:24am
Post #36 of 45
(1316 views)
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Now I KNOW I will bawl next viewing!!!! That's IT- that's the selflessness that made me fall for Fili and Kili in the books! He may not have defended Thorin by the sword, but he most certainly protected him (and Kili) to his dying breath! Bravo, PJ. Bravo.... Now the question is- does Kili moving aside from his revenge against the fallen (his brother) to defend the living (Tauriel) also count as selfless? Though I wish Kili had died defending Thorin, I actually thing the answer to the above is yes. Fili was gone- there's nothing he could have done to change that. His only action after that could have been to avenge him. He was also nearly hopelessly blocked from Thorin, both by terrain and by orcs. But he could have saved another life. Rather than pursue his own selfish revenge in a suicidal manner, he sacrificed himself to save the life of another person who never actually told him she loved him. (not while he was alive to hear it, at least). In fact, I get the impression at the lake that he called her "my love", and she immediately responds with "My Lord Legolas" (he may not have understood my lord in Sindarin, but I'm sure he caught Legolas) and he took it as her saying her love was Legolas, not him. He certainly reacted that way, and looked like he felt rejected, but still impulsively gave her the stone and looked back when they left. So, given that, and the fact that she hollered at him during the battle (I would think she indicated she was struggling, or trying to warn him- quite possibly both), I have a feeling that he made the selfless decision to stay his revenge for the fallen and aid the living, and it cost him his life. After his uncle spent most of his life hating the elves for being unwilling to aid his people, the fact that Kili died defending an elf shows how Kili was unwilling to let revenge and hate rule him. And that, my dear friends, is a character trait of his straight from the book
That's how I'd see it. He was on the opposite side of the battlefield so it isn't like there was a realistic chance he'd reach Thorin. He could have remained blinded by revenge, he was clearly enraged when Fili died, you could see it in his face. We've seen in the movies(and books) how a single feeling can overwhelm all others for detrimental purposes if you choose to let it., whether it's greed or anger or fear
He chose not to let it. He chose to protect the living instead of avenge the dead. He still died fighting the same battle, against the same enemies, he just happened to be specifically fighting for Tauriel instead of running headlong into Azog's sword. I don't actually think it matters whether he believed they could ever be together or not, though I think you are right he thought she rejected him even if on some level he "knew" they were meant to be.
If someone is selfless if they fight for their brother or their uncle or their child or their parents or their friends how does it somehow become selfish if they fight for someone they have fallen in love with? They are still risking themselves to save another, putting someone else ahead of themselves or what they want.
In other words why would it be considered heroic and selfless to say "run" after being captured(and it is both those things) but somehow should be considered less so to choose to face a greater opponent to try and protect someone else's life? Both are brave and heroic and selfless. Between the two of them they are very good people - they have their priorities straight and are very noble(plate tossing and such merriment aside of course:).
:sigh:Had they lived they could have been the greatest leaders Erebor had ever had since the time of Durin himself.
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Cirashala
Valinor
Dec 20 2014, 5:58am
Post #37 of 45
(1308 views)
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Exactly- he didn't let his revenge crowd out all that was good within him 
That's why I love Fili and Kili so much- they DO have their priorities straight. The understood in life what took Thorin in near death to realize- that if all valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world- plate tossing included
In the book, they are always the most optimistic, even lifting the others' spirits when they are down. When they reach Erebor, rather than doing their "Scrooge McDuck" impersonation like everyone else did including Bilbo (Arkenstone), they got harps and SANG songs on the top of the pile- the music was more important to them than the gold. They also disagreed with Thorin's treatment of Laketown and Bilbo- only other to do that was Bombur.
And yet- they chose to die defending those they loved with sword and shield, not because he was their king, but because he was their uncle (Tolkien makes this distinction clear). Kin above king- Thorin their uncle, not mad King Thorin.
They died to save those they loved in the book, and though their deaths in the film were slightly different, ultimately they still did just that. They did what was RIGHT, even if it cost them their lives, because they were acting selflessly. When all around them were being selfish in one way or another at some point during this whole fiasco, they didn't show a SHRED of that nasty trait.
I think that, more so than their valour in battle, is why Tolkien decided that Dis would be mentioned. She certainly did right by her sons!
[:sigh:Had they lived they could have been the greatest leaders Erebor had ever had since the time of Durin himself.]
I agree- and that's what breaks my heart when I think about them dying so young. Had they lived, I think that the divide between dwarves and elves could have begun to heal long before Gimli and Legolas finally breached that gap eighty (sixty in film) years later
The loss of what is good and just- Tolkien knew that feeling well when he watched his own friends die in WWI. It's the cost of war- and that is a heavy price to pay.
If this is victory, then it is bittersweet.
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Laineth
Lorien
Dec 20 2014, 6:42am
Post #38 of 45
(1315 views)
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See, I heard it as "Go". What does everyone else think?
This is a great post about Fili, that I just came upon. I'm really loving all these details!
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marillaraina
Rohan
Dec 20 2014, 6:44am
Post #39 of 45
(1301 views)
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Exactly- he didn't let his revenge crowd out all that was good within him
That's why I love Fili and Kili so much- they DO have their priorities straight. The understood in life what took Thorin in near death to realize- that if all valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world- plate tossing included
In the book, they are always the most optimistic, even lifting the others' spirits when they are down. When they reach Erebor, rather than doing their "Scrooge McDuck" impersonation like everyone else did including Bilbo (Arkenstone), they got harps and SANG songs on the top of the pile- the music was more important to them than the gold. They also disagreed with Thorin's treatment of Laketown and Bilbo- only other to do that was Bombur.
And yet- they chose to die defending those they loved with sword and shield, not because he was their king, but because he was their uncle (Tolkien makes this distinction clear). Kin above king- Thorin their uncle, not mad King Thorin.
They died to save those they loved in the book, and though their deaths in the film were slightly different, ultimately they still did just that. They did what was RIGHT, even if it cost them their lives, because they were acting selflessly. When all around them were being selfish in one way or another at some point during this whole fiasco, they didn't show a SHRED of that nasty trait.
I think that, more so than their valour in battle, is why Tolkien decided that Dis would be mentioned. She certainly did right by her sons!
[:sigh:Had they lived they could have been the greatest leaders Erebor had ever had since the time of Durin himself.]
I agree- and that's what breaks my heart when I think about them dying so young. Had they lived, I think that the divide between dwarves and elves could have begun to heal long before Gimli and Legolas finally breached that gap eighty (sixty in film) years later
The loss of what is good and just- Tolkien knew that feeling well when he watched his own friends die in WWI. It's the cost of war- and that is a heavy price to pay.
If this is victory, then it is bittersweet.
Oh my goodness, that bolded part. That is so beautiful. So is the rest but that part really puts them into context. They are always true. Dis truly did do right by them. Thorin obviously affected them but let's be real, most likely Dis did most of the raising of those two young men. She's a truly tragic figure, she's lost everything.
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Ilmatar
Rohan
Dec 20 2014, 7:37am
Post #40 of 45
(1292 views)
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I felt differently about this:
In fact, I get the impression at the lake that he called her "my love", and she immediately responds with "My Lord Legolas" (he may not have understood my lord in Sindarin, but I'm sure he caught Legolas) and he took it as her saying her love was Legolas, not him. He certainly reacted that way, and looked like he felt rejected, but still impulsively gave her the stone and looked back when they left.
If I remember it right (I have seen the movie twice, last time was yesterday), Kili first said "amrâlimê" and then something along the lines "I know what I feel" and asked her to come with him. She's smiling and looking into his eyes, then suddenly turns her gaze away, the smile vanishes and she says in a tight tone "My lord Legolas", as Legolas has appeared behind her back. To me it was quite clear that she was about to give into Kili's request, when suddenly they were interrupted by Legolas and she was not happy about it. I can't believe that Kili could have misunderstood her that badly, claiming to love Legolas (especially as she was facing Kili, it would have been strange and awkward for her to declare her love for Legolas who was standing behind her). In addition, she has not said a word about love in any language, but is just addressing her prince by his official title.
I just thought that both Kili and Tauriel were irritated by Legolas interrupting on their conversation, but could do nothing about it, and Tauriel had to follow Legolas' command to follow him. Of course I could be wrong :) but this is the impression I got.
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Loxii
The Shire
Dec 20 2014, 7:51am
Post #41 of 45
(1291 views)
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Ah yeah, I have his book too...
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However, I do know that David Salo is the language consultant for the set.
He has written a book on Sindarin- "A Gateway to Sindarin" that reads like a complete textbook on the language (well, as much as we can end up with lol)- including an English-Sindarin and Sindarin-English dictionary in the back, as well as a verb guide and a lexicon of Elvish names/place names Smile
I actually own this book, and though I have not been able to dedicate the time required to learn a new language (even a made up one- its complexity is astounding!) it has been an invaluable resource for some words/phrases/names.
And I had the same problem you did. ^^ It's definitely a great book, but it's written, well, for linguists... and it uses complex abbreviations and grammar that go way over my head. I couldn't really learn it very well.
I was learning Sindarin from online sources like the realelvish website for a while (they have free Sindarin lessons), but it takes a lot of dedication and time. It's actually *harder* to learn Elvish than other languages because there just isn't enough 'solid' material and the grammar rules are iffy, and knowing all the rules takes looking through every appendix of everything every published by Tolkien. =P
Have you seen this, though? - they're trying to address this very issue. The admin of realelvish, and a few other expert fans are getting together to make it all more accessible. Making a tool that breaks down the grammar for you on the fly. I totally want this.
Oh, I've never heard of the Dwarrow Scholar before *googles* ...aha I see. That's pretty cool. I'm a big fan of language expansion, particularly if it's done elegantly. I like creativity, and any language (even English) is constantly acquiring new words too. Ty for the resource! I write fan fics too (it might help me with my Dwarf characters)
(This post was edited by Loxii on Dec 20 2014, 8:03am)
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Cirashala
Valinor
Dec 20 2014, 7:54am
Post #42 of 45
(1286 views)
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Yeah, I find both David Salo's dictionary and Dwarrow Scholar's to be immensely helpful! They're certainly the most concise and complete volumes for Sindarin and Khuzdul that are out there, which is a lot more helpful than anything else I've come across.
Though I would definitely be open to one that makes it easier to learn!
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Thranduil Appreciation. Threadcount: 
