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kandyflossnz
The Shire
Dec 13 2014, 11:06am
Post #1 of 12
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How long did Smaug live under the mountain? And how did he survive, what did he live on? What did he feed on? And surely if he did feed on something that means he had to venture outside the mountain (in search of men, orcs etc). Which means the statement "do not disturb the fiery beast beneath the mountain" is kinda moot. Unless he was a slumbering beast in hibernation for many years and didn't need to eat?
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geordie
Tol Eressea
Dec 13 2014, 11:44am
Post #2 of 12
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Smaug descended on Erebor in the year 2770. Thorin's quest took place in 2941. (RotK. Appendix B) He destroyed Erebor, and Dale, and then evidently a lot of the surrounding area - which became known as the Desolation of Smaug. I don't suppose he had to wait for any sentient beings to wander by, in the coming years - dragons eat animals, as well as elves, dwarfs and men.
btw - the phrase "do not disturb the fiery beast beneath the mountain" isn't in the book, is it? I don't remember it.
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kandyflossnz
The Shire
Dec 13 2014, 12:16pm
Post #3 of 12
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Did Smaug venture out of the mountain
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and where did he get his sustenance, is what i wanted to know. Im reading TH again for the first time since childhood so my memory is very sketchy. The first chapter gives the impression he laid waste to much of the surrounding area so there can't have been much to feast on after the DoS. Animals though, you could be right
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squire
Half-elven
Dec 13 2014, 2:37pm
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A while back, in 2006, TORn poster (and biology grad student) Beren IV ran a series of discussion posts on the ecology of Middle-earth. I remember having fun with his question about the predation ecology of the dragons:
(Question by Beren IV) 7. How many Men/Dwarves/Elves/Orcs does it take per day to feed a Dragon enough to keep it alive? How big of a population of prey species is needed per Dragon?
(Reply by squire:) As I said above, nothing on Middle-earth “lives” on Men or the other anthropoid races. Dragons certainly do not. Their prey species is in fact unclear, since men seem (quite sensibly) to stay away from their territory. Whatever Dragons are, they are large, and would eat large prey animals; yet as I’ve remarked, Tolkien gives little heed to wild animals and one can only hope that the deer and other ruminants that seem absent from the wildernesses of Middle-earth nevertheless frequent the Dragons’ various wastes!
One characteristic of Dragons in Tolkien that seems to draw on their cold-blooded ancestry is their ability to lie dormant for months at a time after feeding. Yet they breathe fire, can travel for days without food, and Smaug and Ancalagon at least can fly – are Dragons cold-blooded or hot-blooded?
What we are overlooking here is the obvious evidence of what Dragons really subsist on, in Tolkien: Men’s souls. Men’s souls are what Dragons consume, both in person by the Dragon-spell, and by proxy in the form of the Dragon’s Hoard. The Hoard represents Men’s greed for possessions and property; Men who put their souls into owning something will pay for it when their bodies are burned by the Dragon-breath and their treasure is taken and heaped under the Dragon’s body. Even those who survive and escape may be seized by Dragon-lust for treasure themselves (Thorin is one example; and this was a direction Tolkien considered taking Bilbo in when contemplating a Hobbit sequel); when that happens, the Dragon has taken their soul as well.
Note that Glaurung’s sack of Nargothrond takes the form of burning, or enslaving the Elves and Men within. He eats no one. Then he heaps the treasure of the Elf-king up, and takes a well-deserved, and no doubt highly-nourishing nap! With enough souls, with enough treasure, a Dragon can live several centuries without eating anything we would call “real food” – as Smaug seems to have when The Hobbit begins. - posted in the TORn Reading Room (old server version), c. 10/15/06
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Cari
Bree
Dec 13 2014, 10:05pm
Post #5 of 12
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It is said in The Hobbit that Smaug preyed on maidens and what survivors there were left of Dale until the city was completely deserted.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 14 2014, 9:00am
Post #6 of 12
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Dragons consume souls? I like this idea very much!//
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~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 14 2014, 11:12am
Post #7 of 12
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Soul-snacking and maiden-munching
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Yes, a dragon's favourite food is virgins (usually female ones, preferably pretty and high-status ones) - that's the fairy-tale trope. (http://tvtropes.org/...gonsPreferPrincesses )
I'm not sure how clearly Tolkien thought this out - it could have been a matter of conforming to the well-established trope in a passing mention & moving on.
That is not meant to be dismissive - of course we can discuss it (and I would like to) whether or not Tolkien had it all figured out.
A few thoughts, squaring Squire's soul-snacking theory with the maiden-munching:
Possibly young, uncorrupted souls are a lot more nourishing than cynical old corrupt ones - all that potential or life force or goodness or whatever to consume.
You could see the lady as in the tradition of human sacrifice to appease frightful forces.
Yon maiden could represent a kind of treasure - this objectifies the poor girl of course, but fairy tales do that: she is perhaps her family's treasure: a flesh-and-blood investment instead of a golden or gemstone one. Then Squire's theory can still be at work: the unfortunate young Andromeda (or whoever it is this time) is to be consumed, but it's also the consumption of somebody's over-attachment. A related thought is that the young ladies in yer fairytale society might be as much under orders as the young warriors: the youths go into battle against whomsoever their lord directs; the maidens marry whomsoever the lord directs, often to gain some alliance or other benefit for the group. Modern Western ideas of marrying your free choice for love might not apply.
Lastly, but maybe most importantly, I think it's worth asking who is usually the protagonist of slay-dragon/rescue damsel/save the town stories. It's the dragon-slayer, usually. So these things can be argued to have symbolic value - the unfortunate lady the hero is rescuing and cutting down from the stake is a symbol in his quest (so nobody usually stops to ask what she wants...). I've read Joseph Cambpell arguing that Occidental dragons represent both lust and greed, the temptations which are presented in many legends, & which the hero must overcome to become a hero.
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
Dec 15 2014, 2:21am
Post #8 of 12
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Smaug knew the taste of Dwarves...
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but not Hobbits. Remember, he feasted on the ponies of the Dwarves when they awakened him from his slumber. He told Bilbo he know the taste (and smell) of Dwarves, but he couldn't make out the taste of Hobbit. So we know that Smaug at the least ate ponies and Dwarves (and probably would like to try Hobbit as well).
Now if we compare Smaug to large snakes and gators/crocs, he could probably eat a lot at one time and then subsist on that while he digests his food. I read somewhere that Gators and Crocs and some large constrictor snakes can go months (even up to a year) without feeding, especially if they consumed something really large. I would imagine that Smaug would go about on periodic feedings then hibernate after that.
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FrogmortonJustice65
Lorien
Dec 15 2014, 6:25pm
Post #9 of 12
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I don't think "soul-eating" needs to be resorted to as an explanation.
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I'm not a biology expert, but I remember learning in a class at some point that reptiles can make a little bit of food go a long way. For example, wikipedia (not the greatest source, but...) says:
The benefit of a low resting metabolism is that it requires far less fuel to sustain bodily functions. By using temperature variations in their surroundings, or by remaining cold when they do not need to move, reptiles can save considerable amounts of energy compared to endothermic animals of the same size.[62] A crocodile needs from a tenth to a fifth of the food necessary for a lion of the same weight and can live half a year without eating.[63] Lower food requirements and adaptive metabolisms allow reptiles to dominate the animal life in regions where net calorie availability is too low to sustain large-bodied mammals and birds.
If we assume that Smaug is quasi-reptilian, given that he has scales and bears similarities to lizards and snakes, then this logic would apply to him.
Now - let's assume that Smaug had quite the meal during the destruction of Dale. Perhaps he ate enough to sustain him for the decades between his arrival and the events of The Hobbit. Throw in the fact that he is a creature of a fantastical nature, and it is easy to imagine Smaug has the capacity to go dormant and not require food. Smaug thus has this reptilian ability, but multiplied tenfold because of his formidable stature and power.
But again, it's silly to put this much thought into this. It's a fantasy book - we don't need precise biological explanations.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 15 2014, 8:33pm
Post #10 of 12
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It depends on whether you're looking for a real world type explanation, or a symbolic one...
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... Either's a possible response, in a fantasy work.
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Dec 19 2014, 10:51pm
Post #11 of 12
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Did Smaug venture out of the mountain and where did he get his sustenance, is what i wanted to know. Im reading TH again for the first time since childhood so my memory is very sketchy. The first chapter gives the impression he laid waste to much of the surrounding area so there can't have been much to feast on after the DoS. Animals though, you could be right
Tolkien seems to give Smaug a typical feeding pattern for a reptile. The wyrm would venture outside of his lair to hunt and eat a heavy meal; then would have a long sleep to digest. Once the area around the Mountain was hunted out, I would guess that Smaug hunted mainly on the northern and eastern borders of Mirkwood. Even in the films, I have the impression that Smaug would occasionally unseal the Front Gate of Erebor to hunt and reseal the entrance upon his return.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Plurmo
Rohan
Dec 20 2014, 8:08am
Post #12 of 12
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Trying to explore that exquisite idea
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Let's consider that Erebor is as much a person as Orodruin is a dragon.
This tree of Aulë has a heart (The Arkensone) while that thorn of Morgoth, Orodruin, has a fire that, like dragons, can unmake Rings of Power.
So, I wonder, since Smaug kept the Arkenstone in his hoard, was the Desolation of Smaug more than the result of his fire, but the comsumption of the mountain herself and its environs (the mountain spirit) by Smaug?
When Smaug died, not only Erebor returned to life reasonably fast, but also the Arkenstone ceased to be an object of greed (since Dáin allowed it to be kept by Thorin under the Mountain.)
On the other hand, Orodruin never dies. Not only did he ate some of what Sauron put of himself into the One Ring, but also ate the part of Frodo that was spent on the Ring along the journey. Those things never came back. They became part of the hoard of Orodruin till the end of days.
Of course your interpretation helps a lot in understanding things. I wonder if "to put one's heart and soul into something," as the saying goes, open's oneself for hoarding by a dragon, since in the particular case of the Arkenstone, both the mountain contributed with her heart and the dwarves contributed with their soul in its carving, just like Erebor itself was carved into a wonderful dwarf city, to the point that both the heart of the mountain and the heart of the Erebor kingdom became one.
So that, perhaps, it would be the enthralling of the Arkenstone by Smaug that would cause both the enduring desolation on the Mountain and the loss of vital spirit in the Erebor royal line, to the point that while they were being consumed by the dragon, they would never be able to regain their full greatness without retaking the Arkenstone, no matter how inspired by greed they became and how rich the other places they found.
Your interpretation seems very powerful to me. I hope I'm not distorting it.
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