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Sauron's Military Strength in the S.A

Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Dec 3 2014, 8:28pm

Post #1 of 10 (770 views)
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Sauron's Military Strength in the S.A Can't Post

During the war against the elves in the early second age, Sauron didn't have the nazguls yet, but still he was powerful enough to destroy the most of the descendents of the Noldor? Did he have millions of orcs and trolls or something in that number? And who was his so call bodyguards that were the only ones left after the numenoreans and elves decimated his entire army?


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Dec 4 2014, 12:22am

Post #2 of 10 (619 views)
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The Elves weren't allied with Men at that time. [In reply to] Can't Post

 


KingTurgon
Rohan


Dec 7 2014, 8:17pm

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Yes they were I'm pretty sure [In reply to] Can't Post

Gil-galad was resisting Sauron in Lindon, so were the Dwarves in Khazad-dum, and Elrond was resisting as well in Rivendell. The men of Numenor broke the siege. Together with the Noldor they destroyed Sauron's army, forcing him to flee east of the Misty Mountains.


HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell


Dec 8 2014, 12:16am

Post #4 of 10 (533 views)
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The Elves may be fading at this point... [In reply to] Can't Post

In the S.A. maybe we see that the Elves are starting to fade and their power is on the wane. They are not at their nadir, which comes in the T.A., but they are no where close to their zenith in the F.A.

Now power is relative and the question still is whether fading Noldor is still stronger than Sauron, who might be ascending at that time. We really don't have an idea of Sauron's power in the S.A. He is obviously weaker than Morgoth, but the Elves are weaker, too.


If we have an idea of Sauron's might at this time, maybe it helps. I would think he would be powerful just on sheer numbers. He would probably outnumbered the Elves by multiples with Orcs and men from South/East.


Felagund
Rohan


Dec 14 2014, 9:17pm

Post #5 of 10 (475 views)
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Sauron's armies, in the War of the Elves & Sauron and beyond [In reply to] Can't Post

The best sources for this question are The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, although even they don't explicitly say who / what comprised Sauron's forces during the War of the Elves and Sauron - only that Sauron was able to field several armies at once in Eriador, that until the intervention of a Númenórean expeditionary force under admiral Ciryatur he held the upper hand against the Eldar, and that whoever these soldiers of Sauron were, they got slaughtered.

There is plenty of indirect evidence though, from which we can deduce the likely make-up of Sauron's armies for this war and the remaining conflicts of the Second Age. Here's a possible break-down:

Orcs

The most likely cannon fodder were, as ever, Orcs. After the sack of Ost-in-Edhil, Sauron had Celebrimbor's corpse hung from a pole and "shot through with Orc-arrows" (UT). I reckon we can take it that there were Orcs present! Also, in a reference to the Black Years (c. II.1693-3441), it's stated "...and the Orcs were at his [Sauron's] command and they multiplied like flies" (Sil).

Men

Additional cannon fodder was no doubt provided by the races of Men generally lumped together as 'Men of Darkness'. These were the Men who, in the aftermath of the destruction of Beleriand, took Morgoth's former human servants (the original Easterlings) as their kings (Sil). This left them ripe for the taking by Morgoth's true successor. As in the Third Age "In the east and south well nigh all Men were under his [Sauron's] dominion" (Sil). The passage goes on: "...and they [the Men of the east & south] grew strong in those days and built many towns and walls of stone, and they were numerous and fierce n war and armed with iron". Although there's no mention of these peoples in the War of the Elves & Sauron (or the War of the Last Alliance, for that matter), it seems pretty likely that they were drafted for the invasion of Eriador.

Another category worth mentioning is the so-called 'Gwaithurim' - the Númenórean name for the folk of Minhiriath and Enedwaith. These were not Men of Darkness in the original sense (worshipers of Morgoth), but in fact relatives of the Second House of the Edain (the Folk of Haleth). Once the Númenóreans started destroying their homeland by cutting down all the trees, they looked to Sauron for succour. Sauron, in turn, used the Gwaithurim as "spies and guides for his raiders" (UT).

The Bearers of the Nine (but not Nazgûl)

As has been remarked elsewhere in this thread, the Nazgûl don't make an appearance until much later (c. II. 2251), so they cannot have played a role in the War of the Elves & Sauron, at least in that form. But, some of the Men who were 'gifted' Rings of Power may have fought in the second half of the war, in their 'pre-Nazgûl' form - ie. as the "kings, sorcerers and warriors of old" they once were (Sil). Ost-in-Edhil fell to Sauron in II.1697, so he could not have distributed the Nine any earlier. However, the war dragged on for another 4 years, so it's conceivable that he started handing some of these Rings out to his chief servants amongst his human soldiery. As mega-maniacal as Sauron was at this time, at the peak of his military power, it would have made sense to 'reward' his best Men - ie. bind them even more closely to his will. Perhaps performance in the war was an initial determinant of who got one of these Rings of Power?

Other possibilities

We've got Orcs and Men of Darkness, but is there anything else? There are some possibilities. Early in the Second Age we learn that "Men dwelt in darkness and were troubled by many evil things that Morgoth had devised in the days of his dominion: demons, and dragons, and misshapen beasts, and the unclean Orcs that are a mockery of the Children of Ilúvatar" (Sil). Not evidence in itself for Sauron co-opting demons and dragons into his war with the Eldar, but a hint that the successor to Morgoth might naturally look in that direction (as he seems to have contemplated with regards to Smaug, in the Third Age). We mustn't forget, also, that Sauron was an arch-necromancer in his own right, so he may have recruited servants from the spirit world.

No mention of trolls anywhere, not even a hint. Victariongreyjoy mentioned Sauron's bodyguard at the Battle of the Gwathló - a complete and utter rout for Sauron (UT). Speculating for a moment, Morgoth's other chief lieutenant, Gothmog had a bodyguard of trolls (the ones Húrin laid into at the Nírnaeth Arnoediad). Maybe Sauron, who seems to have been forever nostalgic for the good old days (a battering ram called Grond, his very own Gothmog, Udûn and Gorgoroth), may have copied his Balrog contemporary, and fielded his own "troll-guard".

I'll mention Dwarves very briefly. Not because I reckon they fought for Sauron in this particular war - the only reference to Dwarves taking part is the intervention by Durin III out of Khazad-dûm, in support of Celebrimbor. However, there is evidence that some did fight for Sauron in the War of the Last Alliance: "Of the Dwarves few fought on either side...". Worth a quick mention in the context of what Sauron's armies may have looked like later in the Second Age.

Conclusions

Most likely Sauron had so many Orcs and Men that he was able to soak up casualties and simply overwhelm the Eldar in the first stage of the war. There may also have been a few 'specialist' shock troops, such as trolls, or even demons, drakes or "misshapen beasts".

And just so we don't leave with the impression that the Eldar were somehow uniquely deficient in this war in the face of overwhelming odds, the Númenóreans were also hard pressed by Sauron's armies at first. Prior to the arrival of the "great armament of Tar-Minastir" (under admiral Ciryatur), the Elves and a force of Númenóreans were holding the line of the River Lhûn against Sauron "in desperate defence of the Grey Havens". Ciryatur's forces turned up "in the very nick of time" to save the day. In other words, Elda and Númenórean alike were on the brink of a kicking, until the proverbial cavalry (fleet) turned up.

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Dec 15 2014, 3:43pm

Post #6 of 10 (451 views)
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Bodyguards could be Olog-Hai [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The best sources for this question are The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, although even they don't explicitly say who / what comprised Sauron's forces during the War of the Elves and Sauron - only that Sauron was able to field several armies at once in Eriador, that until the intervention of a Númenórean expeditionary force under admiral Ciryatur he held the upper hand against the Eldar, and that whoever these soldiers of Sauron were, they got slaughtered.

There is plenty of indirect evidence though, from which we can deduce the likely make-up of Sauron's armies for this war and the remaining conflicts of the Second Age. Here's a possible break-down:

Orcs

The most likely cannon fodder were, as ever, Orcs. After the sack of Ost-in-Edhil, Sauron had Celebrimbor's corpse hung from a pole and "shot through with Orc-arrows" (UT). I reckon we can take it that there were Orcs present! Also, in a reference to the Black Years (c. II.1693-3441), it's stated "...and the Orcs were at his [Sauron's] command and they multiplied like flies" (Sil).

Men

Additional cannon fodder was no doubt provided by the races of Men generally lumped together as 'Men of Darkness'. These were the Men who, in the aftermath of the destruction of Beleriand, took Morgoth's former human servants (the original Easterlings) as their kings (Sil). This left them ripe for the taking by Morgoth's true successor. As in the Third Age "In the east and south well nigh all Men were under his [Sauron's] dominion" (Sil). The passage goes on: "...and they [the Men of the east & south] grew strong in those days and built many towns and walls of stone, and they were numerous and fierce n war and armed with iron". Although there's no mention of these peoples in the War of the Elves & Sauron (or the War of the Last Alliance, for that matter), it seems pretty likely that they were drafted for the invasion of Eriador.

Another category worth mentioning is the so-called 'Gwaithurim' - the Númenórean name for the folk of Minhiriath and Enedwaith. These were not Men of Darkness in the original sense (worshipers of Morgoth), but in fact relatives of the Second House of the Edain (the Folk of Haleth). Once the Númenóreans started destroying their homeland by cutting down all the trees, they looked to Sauron for succour. Sauron, in turn, used the Gwaithurim as "spies and guides for his raiders" (UT).

The Bearers of the Nine (but not Nazgûl)

As has been remarked elsewhere in this thread, the Nazgûl don't make an appearance until much later (c. II. 2251), so they cannot have played a role in the War of the Elves & Sauron, at least in that form. But, some of the Men who were 'gifted' Rings of Power may have fought in the second half of the war, in their 'pre-Nazgûl' form - ie. as the "kings, sorcerers and warriors of old" they once were (Sil). Ost-in-Edhil fell to Sauron in II.1697, so he could not have distributed the Nine any earlier. However, the war dragged on for another 4 years, so it's conceivable that he started handing some of these Rings out to his chief servants amongst his human soldiery. As mega-maniacal as Sauron was at this time, at the peak of his military power, it would have made sense to 'reward' his best Men - ie. bind them even more closely to his will. Perhaps performance in the war was an initial determinant of who got one of these Rings of Power?

Other possibilities

We've got Orcs and Men of Darkness, but is there anything else? There are some possibilities. Early in the Second Age we learn that "Men dwelt in darkness and were troubled by many evil things that Morgoth had devised in the days of his dominion: demons, and dragons, and misshapen beasts, and the unclean Orcs that are a mockery of the Children of Ilúvatar" (Sil). Not evidence in itself for Sauron co-opting demons and dragons into his war with the Eldar, but a hint that the successor to Morgoth might naturally look in that direction (as he seems to have contemplated with regards to Smaug, in the Third Age). We mustn't forget, also, that Sauron was an arch-necromancer in his own right, so he may have recruited servants from the spirit world.

No mention of trolls anywhere, not even a hint. Victariongreyjoy mentioned Sauron's bodyguard at the Battle of the Gwathló - a complete and utter rout for Sauron (UT). Speculating for a moment, Morgoth's other chief lieutenant, Gothmog had a bodyguard of trolls (the ones Húrin laid into at the Nírnaeth Arnoediad). Maybe Sauron, who seems to have been forever nostalgic for the good old days (a battering ram called Grond, his very own Gothmog, Udûn and Gorgoroth), may have copied his Balrog contemporary, and fielded his own "troll-guard".

I'll mention Dwarves very briefly. Not because I reckon they fought for Sauron in this particular war - the only reference to Dwarves taking part is the intervention by Durin III out of Khazad-dûm, in support of Celebrimbor. However, there is evidence that some did fight for Sauron in the War of the Last Alliance: "Of the Dwarves few fought on either side...". Worth a quick mention in the context of what Sauron's armies may have looked like later in the Second Age.

Conclusions

Most likely Sauron had so many Orcs and Men that he was able to soak up casualties and simply overwhelm the Eldar in the first stage of the war. There may also have been a few 'specialist' shock troops, such as trolls, or even demons, drakes or "misshapen beasts".

And just so we don't leave with the impression that the Eldar were somehow uniquely deficient in this war in the face of overwhelming odds, the Númenóreans were also hard pressed by Sauron's armies at first. Prior to the arrival of the "great armament of Tar-Minastir" (under admiral Ciryatur), the Elves and a force of Númenóreans were holding the line of the River Lhûn against Sauron "in desperate defence of the Grey Havens". Ciryatur's forces turned up "in the very nick of time" to save the day. In other words, Elda and Númenórean alike were on the brink of a kicking, until the proverbial cavalry (fleet) turned up.


Very good insight you have her. Smile I believe also that Sauron had thousands of trolls in his arsenal. Everything from cavetrolls to olog-hai. Maybe the ones that protected him was a elite-shock trooper trolls.
The men that served Sauron probably were easterlings and southrons. What about the black numenoreans? Did he have an army of them, like the ones the Witch King had? I also believe men were better fighters than the orcs, and the elves as skilled as they were, may find it more difficult to beat them down.


Felagund
Rohan


Dec 15 2014, 11:35pm

Post #7 of 10 (452 views)
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Olog-hai, Black Númenóreans, and a Nazgûl side quest [In reply to] Can't Post

Yep, I reckon Sauron's human soldiers were, for the most part, the ancestors of those who became known in the Third Age as Easterlings and Haradrim / Southrons.

Olog-hai, on the other hand, appear to have been a late Third Age phenomenon (LotR, Appendix F). I still like the Sauron "troll-guard" idea, but they couldn't have been Olog-hai.

As for the Black Númenóreans, that gets a bit more complicated. The chronology in The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales is on the verge of contradictory. We know that "among those he [Sauron] ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenórean race". This can't have been before II.1697, when Sauron seized what would become known as the Nine Rings of Power, and the usual terminus ante quem is c. II.2251, when the Nazgûl first appear (LotR, Appendix B). However, The Sil also implies a link between the appearance of the Nazgûl and the reign of the 20th king of Númenor, Ar-Adûnakhôr (II.2899-2962).

In addition, we know that the 'King's Men' first arose as a faction in during the reign of Tar-Ancalimon (II.2221–II.2386) - a good source of 'corruptible' types, if Sauron ever encountered them. Going back a little further, it's during the reign of Tar-Ciryatan (II.1869–II.2029) that "the Shadow" is first said to fall on Númenor. Tar-Ciryatan is described as having waged war on Middle-earth and looted the place for the glory and enrichment of Númenor. Again, this is a period in which we can reasonably speculate Númenóreans susceptible to Sauron's blandishments (and a Ring of Power) may have come into contact with the Dark Lord of Mordor. Interestingly, it isn't until the reign of Tar-Calmacil (II.2737-II.2825) that Tolkien explicitly mentions contact between Númenóreans and Sauron's territories (UT).

The first confirmed Númenórean renegades who served Sauron in Middle-earth were Herumor and Fuinur, who established themselves as lords of the Haradrim, no earlier than c. II.3265 (at which point Sauron begins to wield influence in Númenor) and no later than II.3429 (the start of the War of the Last Alliance) (Sil). These were described as being of a generation of Númenóreans who had followed Sauron's teachings during his sojourn in Númenor (II.3262-II.3319), and continued to do so after the Akallabêth. It was these who constitute our first confirmed supporters and servants of Sauron in Middle-earth, and who went on the fight for Sauron in the War of the Last Alliance.

Also, as far as we know, the War of the Elves & Sauron (II.1693-1701) was the first time Sauron had direct contact with the Númenóreans - it certainly marks the occasion when he vows that he'll get his revenge. The Númenóreans had been sailing to Middle-earth since c. II.600 but there was no permanent settlement until II.800, when Aldarion established Vinyalondë (the future Lond Daer) at the mouth of the Gwathir / Gwathló / Greyflood. Settlements to the south, ie. in closer proximity to Mordor, didn't come until much later - Umbar in II.2280 (although this was the date of its fortification, so perhaps the settlement was earlier), and Pelargir in II.2350. So if the first Nazgûl didn't appear until c. II.2251, then the chronology gets a bit difficult.

One solution is to hold that Sauron didn't distribute all of the Nine (or the Seven, for that matter) all at once. Not so much of a leap, if we believe Sauron to be written as a rational villain, who would wait until the moment of greatest benefit to himself (as he perceived it) in order to hand out Rings of Power. Yes, he got it wrong with the Dwarves but by the same token, are we seriously to believe that in II.1697 the Dwarf-lords of the Seven Houses were all just loitering around Ost-in-Edhil, waiting for a Ring of Power? Given that four of these Dwarf-lords had their mansions hundreds of leagues to the east, east of Rhûn even, it seems more likely that the distribution of the Rings of Power seized by Sauron in II.1697, took place over a number of years.

So where does all this chronology confusion leave us with the Black Númenóreans? Although I don't rule it out, the War of the Elves & Sauron (II.1693-II.1701) was probably a bit early for them to make an appearance. As for the War of the Last Alliance (II.3429-II.3441), they were most certainly on the scene, and almost certainly during the preceding century. As for the closely-related side question of the three Black Númenóreans who went on to have careers as undead, I suggest Sauron may only have encountered them some time (possibly some centuries) after the first of the Nine Rings of Power were handed out. Sauron had the motive to do this as early as possible but not, I suggest, the opportunity until much later than the sacking of Ost-in-Edhil (II.1697). If I had to suggest a date range, I'd pick between the reign of Tar-Ciryatan (II.1869–II.2029) and the reign of Tar-Calmacil (II.2737-II.2825). This thesis implies that not all of the Nazgûl arose in II.2251, and not all were recruited at the same time. That's not a particularly controversial idea, given that Tolkien wrote of the Men who received the Nine "And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thralldom of the ring that they bore and under the domination of the One... And they became for ever invisible..." (Sil). If these nine Men, Black Númenóreans or otherwise, were 'fading' at different paces, then there's nothing to suggest that all of the Nazgûl appeared in II.2251. And if all of them aren't tied to that date, then there's nothing inherently misplaced in the idea that their recruitment also took place at different times.

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Dec 16 2014, 8:44pm

Post #8 of 10 (448 views)
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Sauron forces [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a shame Tolkien didn't have many details about that periode of time. So from what we know, ancenstors of haradrim and easterlings, millions of orcs, probably thousands of trolls, and some evil\wraith spirits were in his disposal.
His generals were probably chieftains of the men of darkness, some orc Azog\Gothmog(Return of the King), or maybe some few men that already resemblance the mouth of Sauron.


Felagund
Rohan


Dec 16 2014, 9:29pm

Post #9 of 10 (454 views)
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the Second Age is the best [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, the Second Age is awesome but light on source material. A few of us dabbled with the idea of running some dedicated threads a while back, but it faded out once I got distracted by something else in Middle-earth.

Here is the output of the short-lived project (assuming the links work!):

http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=356064;guest=126683043#356064

http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=401117;guest=126683043#401117

http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=358830;guest=126683043#358830

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Dec 19 2014, 12:55pm

Post #10 of 10 (449 views)
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:D [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks! I'll check it out Smile

 
 

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