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Curious
Half-elven


Mar 11 2008, 11:03pm

Post #76 of 98 (125 views)
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In the face of a common threat, yes. [In reply to] Can't Post

But when the common threat is gone, King Elessar's most dramatic rulings involve creating clear territories for the various peoples, with draconian rules about crossing the borders. In the unpublished epilogue, even King Elessar refuses to enter the Shire because of his own edict. Tolkien seems to have it both ways in his fantasy ending; a universal empire, yes, but one made up of Balkanized states based on racial and ethnic heritage.


Curious
Half-elven


Mar 11 2008, 11:26pm

Post #77 of 98 (129 views)
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Here's the quote from Tolkien's [In reply to] Can't Post

Guide to the Names in LotR:


Quote

Marigold. Translate this flower-name (see III 413). The name is used because it is suitable as a name in English and because, containing 'gold' and referring to a golden flower, it suggests that there was a 'Fallohide' strain (see 1 12) in Sam's family—which, increased by the favour of Galadriel, became notable in his children: especially Elanor, but also Goldilocks (a name sometimes given to flowers of the buttercup kind) who married the heir of Peregrin Took. Unfortunately the name of the flower in the language of translation may be unsuitable as a name in form or meaning (for instance French souci). In such a case it would be better to substitute the name of some other yellow flower. The Swedish translator solved the difficulty by translating the name as Majagull and adding Ringblom (Swedish ringblomma 'marigold'; compare German Ringelblume). The Dutch translator was content with Meizoentje 'daisy'; which is good enough. He did not include the genealogies in his translation, and ignored 'the fact that Daisy was the name of a much older sister of Sam and not a playmate of Rosie Cotton.


I added the italics for emphasis.


Quote
Even after both of them have lived largely out of doors for months on end, Sam is still conspicuously darker than Frodo, taking Frodo's white hand into his brown one, so we're not talking about a tan, here.


An excellent point! Of course since Frodo was a Fallohide, he presumably was fair skinned, so it's unclear whether Sam was any more "brown" than, say, Sean Connery




versus Frodo's Peter O'Toole.




a.s.
Valinor


Mar 12 2008, 12:39am

Post #78 of 98 (145 views)
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"but only with thy lawfully wedded spouse" [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence




So THAT'S what they used to call it! Huh. Would make for some interesting conversation..."I don't feel very benevolent tonight, hon, I've got a headache".

FAMILY BOARD FAMILY BOARD!!

LOL

a.s.

"an seileachan"

"Good night, little girls, thank the Lord you are well!
Now go to sleep" said Miss Clavel.
And she turned out the light and shut the door,
And that's all there is. There isn't any more.


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Mar 12 2008, 1:01am

Post #79 of 98 (152 views)
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Sex! Drugs! Race! Religion! Straying politicians! [In reply to] Can't Post

Is there any controversial subject which we have not touched on yet in this thread?

My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.


squire
Valinor


Mar 12 2008, 3:27am

Post #80 of 98 (137 views)
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Not tonight; I have a headache [In reply to] Can't Post

The short answer is that Daeron was Tinuviel's brother in The Book of Lost Tales, which includes the first rendering of the Beren/Luthien legend. It was written in the late 'teens.

In the second version of Lay of the Children of Hurin, written in the early 1920s, Tolkien (in a mere flashback scene in which Morwen thinks about her husband Hurin's connection with Beren and Luthien) changed Daeron from Tinuviel's brother to Luthien's suitor (yes, and Tinuviel first became Luthien Tinuviel at almost the same time). Christopher Tolkien identifies typescripts a and b for just this short section; in a the line is (speaking of Thingol and Luthien) "his daughter dear, Dairon's sister," while in b the line is "his daughter dear, by Dairon loved." (HoME III, "The Lays of Beleriand", note for line 265 on p. 141)

As Light as Leaf on Linden Tree is the short poem written in the same period. It retells Beren's first chase and conquest of Luthien. Daeron is present, but not identified in any way except as flute player.

In the Lay of Leithian, written in the mid-1920s, Daeron is still Luthien's suitor as well as accompanist, but he has also become jealous of Beren - which is the role he plays in the rather abbreviated but well-known prose account of the affair that appears in the Silmarillion of 1977.

You mention "other versions" where Daeron is still Tinuviel's brother. It may well be; they don't come to my mind right now, but as I said, I'm so tired, dear...



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


squire
Valinor


Mar 12 2008, 3:38am

Post #81 of 98 (140 views)
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Ma! Ma! Where's My Pa? [In reply to] Can't Post

"Gone to the White House, Ha Ha Ha!"



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


Curious
Half-elven


Mar 12 2008, 3:57am

Post #82 of 98 (114 views)
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I was the one who wrote that. [In reply to] Can't Post

It's not just a matter of sex within marriage, but also sex for procreation. My Google research seems to confirm my impression of the Catholic ideal of sex and the reason the Pope forbids contraception:


Quote

The Church, nevertheless, in urging men to the observance of the precepts of the natural law, which it interprets by its constant doctrine, teaches that each and every marital act must of necessity retain its intrinsic relationship to the procreation of human life.







Beren IV
Gondor


Mar 12 2008, 4:09am

Post #83 of 98 (134 views)
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Family board? [In reply to] Can't Post

As Dreamdeer points out, we certainly have touched on a great number of highly controversial subjects in this thread - perhaps the worst of all of them being my brief and veiled allusion to the human population problem! Wink

That said, we certainly haven't been raunchy.

I think what we may be seeing is that past cultures, even the past of our culture, usually connected sex with love, which is not only 'decent', but realistic: most sex in developed world happens between couples who do love each-other or at least think they do. The phrase "make love" means to have sex, but it has a connotation of something more than just the physical act that sex consists of. I think that the various biblical references to how married couples should treat each-other are accounting for this fact.

So, back to Tolkien, if no sex in Tolkien's universe ever happened outside of marraige, then we can assume that it was loving, except of course in the case of forced marriages.

Speaking of which, was Tar-Miriel married before Ar-Pharazôn forced her to wed?

Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist


Modtheow
Lorien


Mar 12 2008, 7:19pm

Post #84 of 98 (116 views)
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interesting story [In reply to] Can't Post

behind that rhyme, as I've just found out. (I had to google the lines since I'd never heard them before.) As usual, I learn something new every day in the RR.


Aunt Dora Baggins
Half-elven


Mar 13 2008, 6:34pm

Post #85 of 98 (91 views)
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I often wonder [In reply to] Can't Post

what things we do that future generations will look at and be appalled at, as much as we are about slavery, for example. I have some guesses, mostly things that I myself do but feel guilty about, like wasting resources and eating meat. I still do them, though, which gives me some insight, I guess, as to how my ancestors could have compartmentalized their minds enough to condone slavery. (I did have one ancestor who was given three slaves as a wedding present and was horrified and set them free immediately. But it was his father-in-law who gave them to him, and he was presumably my ancestor too.)


In Reply To

Although I see what you mean about us having an understanding of right and wrong that "primitive people" didn't have, I would go one step further and acknowledge that we are also primitive people. We are no more likely to have found the moral high ground than they were - society changes, and with it our sense of what's right and what's wrong.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



FarFromHome
Valinor


Mar 13 2008, 7:27pm

Post #86 of 98 (95 views)
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Yes, we are very greedy [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I have some guesses, mostly things that I myself do but feel guilty about, like wasting resources ...


I think history will see us in the West as having burned our way through the resources of the entire world, while leaving the poor of other continents to starve to death, or kill each other fighting over the crumbs from our table. It shocks me when I think about it, but like everyone else I "compartmentalize" my mind, as you put it, and keep living the Western lifestyle. If we manage to leave any descendants, I think they will find plenty to criticize us for!

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.


Aunt Dora Baggins
Half-elven


Mar 13 2008, 9:08pm

Post #87 of 98 (92 views)
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Well, my grandmother [In reply to] Can't Post

was a flapper, and while she didn't "sleep around", I'm pretty sure she had sex with my grandfather before they were married. She used to tell a story of taking the Model T out to a field at night and "making woo" with my grandfather. There was a high-chair from his mother's restaurant in the backseat, and they took it out so they could "make woo" more comfortably, and then forgot it, and were busted when they went home without it.

Once when I was a teenager I said something about my "sweet innocent grandmother" and she fixed me with a stern look and said "I may be sweet, but don't you ever call me innocent!"

My other grandmother, though, was very innocent, despite having five kids. :-)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Aunt Dora Baggins
Half-elven


Mar 13 2008, 9:11pm

Post #88 of 98 (92 views)
Shortcut
It's a very entertaining thread [In reply to] Can't Post

and your subject line is pretty good too :-D

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Dreamdeer
Valinor


Mar 13 2008, 10:26pm

Post #89 of 98 (103 views)
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Gandalf Values [In reply to] Can't Post

I do feel that one of the most important aspects of Tolkien's writings is that they set forth an overall foundation of values that can apply to the issues of every age, helping those who embrace the story to overcome the blind spots of their day. Like the values of Thomas Jefferson, who owned slaves, and yet wrote the very words that made the end of slavery possible, "All men are created equal", the foundation of Tolkien's values transcends his own limitations, and also any quibbles we might raise with him or each other about sex, drugs, or rock and roll.

There's the Gandalf paradigm, of interconnection and respect for all, opposed to the Saruman paradigm, of alienation and expedience. In my youth, the big issue such values raised was whether a nuclear bomb might be our equivalent of the Ring of Power. Now I see the same books supporting people's efforts to integrate with nature rather than to exert mastery over it, and to take only what is one's due rather than to glom up everything in sight. Do we pursue the self-mastery of Tom Bombadil, who appreciates the nature of everything he meets, or the endless consumption of resources necessary to keep the machinery of Isengard running? Do we connect with nature, with each other, with the needs of people who might be impacted by our decisions? Or do we limit the scope of whose benefit we consider, narrower and narrower, until like Ungoliant we devour ourselves?

It's hard to think of an issue that one cannot find guidance on by asking, "Does this connect me more lovingly to Creator and Creation and everything?" (Even an atheist can seek connection to a principle of creativity and love) The opposite, the root of all evil, would be love of money--in other words, love of an abstraction over the thing it was meant to signify. Alienation. Valuing numbers increasingly removed from what they ought to represent. Forgetting the point of what one strives for.

I do believe you are right about what future generations will judge us harshly for. But I also believe that what we have come to believe in, in the many religions, cultures, and subcultures present in Tolkien fandom, can, does, will, and has always inspired us to behave better than we might have otherwise. We might have a long way to go to become better people, but I think that every one of us has set out on that journey.

And that is something that I did not learn from Poictesme.

My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.


Darkstone
Immortal


Mar 14 2008, 1:38pm

Post #90 of 98 (91 views)
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What's spooky... [In reply to] Can't Post

We are seeing the world through their eyes, which gives us a glimpse of a world that never existed, except in the minds of people who did not have the same knowledge we have now.

...is to realize how people a hundred years from now will doubtless tut-tut and shake their heads over the prejudices we have today. Even prejudices we don't even know we have! "How could they have ever believed that?" they will self-righteously say to each other. "What terrible people!!"

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



FarFromHome
Valinor


Mar 14 2008, 5:46pm

Post #91 of 98 (76 views)
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Yep. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
people a hundred years from now will doubtless tut-tut and shake their heads over the prejudices we have today



The way we construct "reality" is something I find really interesting. But I can't think about it for too long without getting a headache!

Crazy

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Mar 14 2008, 8:13pm

Post #92 of 98 (86 views)
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Daeron Suitor, not Brother Then [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, Lost Tales certainly isn't 'canon' & we can conclude that Tolkien did away with Daeron as brother & made him Luthien's suitor......

Lost Tales & 'Lays of beleriand' are the primitive springboards towards a constantly revised product Tolkien worked on the rest of his life.

Let's not forget that in 'The Fall of Gondolin', Tour alone kills 5 Balrogs & Ecthelion 3, while Tolkien later concluded there must've been only '3 or 7' (Seven obviously) & from all accounts, killing them wasn't as easy as all that and certainly moral men, even those later accounted among the Eldar, weren't doing it like Arnold or Stallone in an action flick.......


Beren IV
Gondor


Mar 15 2008, 4:34am

Post #93 of 98 (60 views)
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Neither is Morgoth's Ring [In reply to] Can't Post

If Tolkien wanted to publish the Silmarillion, he could have. The fact that he didn't clearly means that no version of the Sil, not even the final revisions, is 'canon'. That term, if there can be such a thing for a universe that is explicitly fictional, is reserved solely for The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. In neither of those is Daeron's relationship to Lúthien even mentioned, so far as I know.

Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Mar 15 2008, 2:50pm

Post #94 of 98 (70 views)
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No 'canon', Agreed, But.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Wink

Surprise, Surprise.....

While Tolkien never completed the Tales of the First Age, he did refine it continually as his son so well points out in the ongoing commentary in HoME & Unfinished Tales, even Children of Hurin.
So, we get a picture of where Tolkien was going & wanted to go - although we certainly don't know all the picture.

It would seem likely Daeron become Luthien's suitor & not brother, just as Balrogs became fewer & much harder to kill.

Other things aren't so clear, like Orodreth or Gil-Galad or Celeborn's lineage, although, like CT, we can make good educated guesses on where Tolkien was going in his later years with this stuff.
Then there's when Glorfindel returned to Middle-earth....

Are these really important to enjoying a story?
Of course not. They're just important to those of us who look at Middle'earth from an historical perspective, as Tolkien himself did at times.

Personally, I wish somebody who is a true Tolkien scholar would 'redo' The Silmarillion using all the information available from the published sources: The Silm, UT, HoM-e & CoH & come up with the most accurate volume possible.
Maybe it's been done on the sly?


squire
Valinor


Mar 15 2008, 6:00pm

Post #95 of 98 (73 views)
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Arrrgh! [In reply to] Can't Post

("...screamed an impatient Nozdrul, who, by coincidence, happened to be named Argh.")

I'm not sure the Sil needs to be "redone" to become more "accurate". "Accurate" to what standard? Some projection as to Tolkien's mind (or "intent") just before his death, on every point of interest in his entire legendarium? It seems clear to me that Tolkien never had a settled vision of the entire Sil at any point in his life. The entire thing ebbed and flowed back and forth in his mind like a sea of tales, with this or that detail or character or plotline changing its form and purpose every time he pulled it out for inspection.

For instance, would you like to add the later version of the Sun and the Moon to the Sil, which is sketched in Morgoth's Ring? He liked it and felt it was the right way to go, but he decided not to include it in the Sil, as far as we know, because it would have required a rewrite of the first half of the Sil and much of LotR. Should the entire adventure of Hurin with the woodmen of Brethil be included (from War of the Jewels)? The only version available is in such tremendous detail that it outweighs whole tales from other parts of the legendarium, and CT says he omitted it for that reason, (rather than, say, write his own compressed version to squeeze the "plot points" into the Sil).

In other words, I don't agree that a "most accurate" Sil is possible - and I don't think it's needed. What I would like to see is an annotated edition of the current Silmarillion, that brings to the reader's attention all the additional knowledge about the Silmarillion corpus that is now available: alternate ideas and directions considered by JRRT, the "invented" insertions or modifications by CT, the earlier and later variations on stories and characters that HoME details so well. But this would be a comprehensive scholarly apparatus added at the back, not a rewrite. I don't think one word of the 1977 edition should be changed - that way, I think, lies madness.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


Beren IV
Gondor


Mar 15 2008, 6:26pm

Post #96 of 98 (58 views)
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Honestly, I don't think that it is even possible [In reply to] Can't Post

to make the Sil what it should be. The only man who could do it I think is JRRT himself, and he's dead. Maybe when we go to Heaven, we will find him sitting at a table with Gary Gygax, the former with his twenty-thousand page volume telling every story in the Sil to the same detail as LotR, and the latter with his newly minted rulebook for the definitive Middle Earth roleplaying game! Wink

More serious, now, there are a number of problems with the believability of the Sil in its religious context - in particular, there needs to be some sense in which the final outcome of the story is uncertain but at the same time dependent upon the actions of the protagonists. Tolkien recognized this problem, and it is why the Sil was never finished. LotR would have had this problem as well, but for the fact that the references to the Higher Powers in LotR, and to Ilúvitar in particular, are dropped only in the subtlest of hints.

Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Mar 15 2008, 6:49pm

Post #97 of 98 (61 views)
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Good Point [In reply to] Can't Post

As we already know the truth about Orodreth's lineage, what's the point?

And as for 'The Wanderings of Hurin', the end in Brethel is so absurd, with the whole place being destroyed over a thrown stool, I guess it should stay in HoME's unfinished tales & not be 'canon' anyhow.

The whole Doriath thing, oh well.

I guess we all need to figure it out for ourselves, right?

And, I think that's fitting as Tolkien came to see the First Age as remote history handed down through the long years via word of mouth & not recorded in black & white.

BTW, Beren IV: I've often pondered The Silm as a TLOR's type book, as The Children of Hurin is & 'Of the Coming of Tour to Gondolin'.....

The Silm would probably reach, as you say several thousand pages, but be a much more 'personal' & deeper read - oh well. Unsure


(This post was edited by Tolkien Forever on Mar 15 2008, 6:52pm)


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Mar 15 2008, 9:24pm

Post #98 of 98 (299 views)
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Canon blasts [In reply to] Can't Post

This won't do any good in a literary discussion that has nothing to do with suspension of disbelief, but for discussions that do suspend disbelief to immerse into the tale and treat it as though fact, the method I use when writing fanfic might apply. That is, I take anything in "The Hobbit", "The Lord of the Rings", or "The Silmarillion" as history, anything in "Lost Tales" as fragments of documentation that the scribes have not yet verified but with a fair likelihood of authenticity, and "Unfinished Tales" et al. as rumors, hearsay, folklore, speculation, fiction, out-and-out-lies, suppressed truths, etc. (Which them opens up fun possibilities, like showing Makar and Measse as sneaky fallen spirits trying to pass themselves off as Valar, rumors that orcs are actually descended of men rather than elves as elvish propaganda, etc.,but that's beside the point.)

My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.

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