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Lothlórien, part IX, "The heart of elvendom on earth"

elostirion74
Rohan

Mar 8 2008, 4:11pm

Post #1 of 11 (1592 views)
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Lothlórien, part IX, "The heart of elvendom on earth" Can't Post

Sam and Frodo climb Cerin Amroth with Haldir. As they do so they feel the south wind and hear the sound of the seas of long ago and birds whose races have perished from the earth. Climbing onto the flet at the centre of the circle of trees, Frodo sees a hill of mighty trees and when he lifts his eyes the river a land flat and formless rising to a dark wall. Haldir tells them that the dark wall is southern Mirkwood, where lies Dol Guldur, the stronghold where Sauron long dwelt while regaining his power.
”In this high place you may see the two powers that are opposed to one to another; and ever they strive now in though, but whereas the light perceives the very heart of the darkness, its own secret has not been discovered. Not yet.”

A. How does this thought fit in with the larger story of FoTR?

B. Why the South Wind?

Going down to the foot of the hill, Frodo finds Aragorn standing still with a golden elanor in his hand, wrapped in a fair memory, speaking in Elvish to a person Frodo cannot see. A change seems to have come over Aragorn, for “the grim years were removed from the face of Aragorn, and he seemed clothed in white, a young lord tall and fair”.

C. What has happened? Does Frodo have a vision of Aragorn or has Aragorn changed with the stay in Lórien, a prefiguring of the Aragorn we see in The Two Towers? Or is it something else?

Aragorn says to Frodo:

“Here is the heart of Elvendom on Earth,... and here my heart dwells ever, unless there be a light beyond the dark roads that we still must tread you and I”

Comments?


Darkstone
Immortal


Mar 8 2008, 9:18pm

Post #2 of 11 (1187 views)
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Aragorn the Faithful [In reply to] Can't Post

Sam and Frodo climb Cerin Amroth with Haldir. As they do so they feel the south wind and hear the sound of the seas of long ago and birds whose races have perished from the earth.

Sam and Frodo have heard call of the sea and the gulls.

"...then I stood still, forgetting war in Middle-Earth; for their wailing voices spoke to me of the sea! The sea! Alas! I have not yet beheld it, but deep in the hearts of all my kindred lies the sea-loving, which it is perilous to stir. Alas! for the gulls. No peace shall I have again under beech or under elm.”

Or in the Shire for that matter.


Climbing onto the flet at the centre of the circle of trees, Frodo sees a hill of mighty trees and when he lifts his eyes the river a land flat and formless rising to a dark wall. Haldir tells them that the dark wall is southern Mirkwood, where lies Dol Guldur, the stronghold where Sauron long dwelt while regaining his power.
”In this high place you may see the two powers that are opposed to one to another;"


Evidence that the original title of the second volume was to have been “The Two Powers” except for a typo.


… and ever they strive now in though, but whereas the light perceives the very heart of the darkness, its own secret has not been discovered. Not yet.”

A. How does this thought fit in with the larger story of FoTR?


The unperceived secret in the very heart of the light concerns a humble little hobbit and a very foolish quest.


B. Why the South Wind?

The South Wind brings the storms of late Summer and Autumn. But the obvious coming storm, the War of the Ring, will be in Winter, and conclude with the Spring. So it can't be that.

However, the coming storm in Hobbiton, the Scouring of the Shire, will indeed take place in the Autumn.


Going down to the foot of the hill, Frodo finds Aragorn standing still with a golden elanor in his hand, wrapped in a fair memory, speaking in Elvish to a person Frodo cannot see. A change seems to have come over Aragorn, for “the grim years were removed from the face of Aragorn, and he seemed clothed in white, a young lord tall and fair”.

C. What has happened?


Aragorn’s Feyness has emerged.


Does Frodo have a vision of Aragorn or has Aragorn changed with the stay in Lórien...?

Yes.


Or is it something else?

Frodo’s own Feyness allows him to perceive it.


Aragorn says to Frodo:

“Here is the heart of Elvendom on Earth,... and here my heart dwells ever, unless there be a light beyond the dark roads that we still must tread you and I”

Comments?


Well, we can imagine that here is where he met Arwen. But wouldn’t his heart be with Arwen rather than the place they met?

We recall that Aragorn is Dunedain, and the Dunedain are descended from Isildur, and Isildur was of Numenor. The Men who received Numenor were The Faithful, those who remained true to the Elves and the will of the Valar. Besides being of The Faithful, Isildur was specifically titled "The Faithful", because he rescued the White Tree from destruction by Sauron and The King's Men at great cost to himself, and brought a seedling of Telperion to be planted in Minas Tirith.

Likewise Aragorn is Faithful to the Elves and to the Will of the Valar. Here lies his fealty, his allegiance, his faith, his heart.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



Dreamdeer
Valinor


Mar 8 2008, 11:25pm

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Aragorn Remembers [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Sam and Frodo climb Cerin Amroth with Haldir. As they do so they feel the south wind and hear the sound of the seas of long ago and birds whose races have perished from the earth. Climbing onto the flet at the centre of the circle of trees, Frodo sees a hill of mighty trees and when he lifts his eyes the river a land flat and formless rising to a dark wall. Haldir tells them that the dark wall is southern Mirkwood, where lies Dol Guldur, the stronghold where Sauron long dwelt while regaining his power.
”In this high place you may see the two powers that are opposed to one to another; and ever they strive now in though, but whereas the light perceives the very heart of the darkness, its own secret has not been discovered. Not yet.”

A. How does this thought fit in with the larger story of FoTR? That evil can't really figure out what good thinks, which is the whole gamble that everybody's staking their lives on. It has to mean something general like that, because surely Galadriel would not confide the secret of the Ring to her guardsman, when even Aragorn exclaimed, "That should not have been said, even to me!"

B. Why the South Wind?

Because that is quarter from which their destinies call them.

Going down to the foot of the hill, Frodo finds Aragorn standing still with a golden elanor in his hand, wrapped in a fair memory, speaking in Elvish to a person Frodo cannot see. A change seems to have come over Aragorn, for “the grim years were removed from the face of Aragorn, and he seemed clothed in white, a young lord tall and fair”.

C. What has happened? Does Frodo have a vision of Aragorn or has Aragorn changed with the stay in Lórien, a prefiguring of the Aragorn we see in The Two Towers? Or is it something else? I see this not so much as a prefiguring as it is a remembering. Lorien holds off the ravages of time. So in some sense young Aragorn will always propose to Arwen at this spot. When older Aragorn steps into that spot, on a spiritual level he relives the experience in a more vivid way than memory. Frodo's increasingly acute insight sees that--especially since the Ring enhances his perceptions of all things that relate to it, and this holding-back of time comes of a ring tied to the One Ring.

Aragorn says to Frodo:

“Here is the heart of Elvendom on Earth,... and here my heart dwells ever, unless there be a light beyond the dark roads that we still must tread you and I”

Comments?



We all have our deciding moments that seem to be, for us, the center of time, where everything else is either before or after. For him, everything hinged on his proposal to Arwen. On the romantic level, it was the most joyous event he had ever known, that she would agree to marry him. On the pragmatic level, it changed the course of his entire life, because he could not have her until he put an end to generations of Dunedain dwindling. He had to become King or Elrond would not allow the marriage.

I know a lot of people see Movie-Aragorn's reluctance as diverging from the book, but I found it accurate, and had that idea in my mind long before Jackson or Bashki or anyone else put the story to film. In the appendices, Aragorn (incognito) actually won the trust and admiration of Denethor's father, who favored him over his own son. Had he revealed his true identity then, he could have had the Kingship handed over to him without nearly as much fuss. But he balked for young Denethor's sake. Now really, doesn't that sound like a feeble excuse? "Oh no, don't make me king--that might make this youngster jealous!" It's a good thing that Arwen didn't surrender her immortality till after the wedding, or she might have dumped him right then out of impatience!

Even after he saved the day at the Battle of Pelennor Field, Aragorn snuck into Gondor in disguise, and only because lots of people needed medical aid that only he could furnish--and then he snuck out again before anybody could crown him. He claimed that he wanted to avoid strife, but hey, the old Steward had just barbecued himself, and the heir immediately acknowledge him as King upon waking from his coma, and you've got all of these uncertain soldiers milling around wondering who will lead them and feeling rather antsy to have an answer as soon as possible. What strife? I think his other line, about being unused to cities of stone, hit closer to the mark.

So it seems plain to me that if he had never proposed to Arwen, he would have never become King. Nothing else could have motivated him. He liked the ranger lifestyle, as no doubt his forefathers before him did, having acquired a taste for the freedom, the open air, the lack of court politics trammeled within a stone city where too few green things grew. The fact that the Dunedain perpetually protected the peasantry from evil things gave them job satisfaction and a sense of nobility about their choice--but it really was a choice. Gondor refused Arnor's just claim to the throne on such a flimsy technicality that a sophomore law student could have blown it out of the water--yet the Royal House of Arnor didn't even contest it? Note that absolutely nothing happened in the books that changed that technicality one bit--they still had not found proof of the last King's demise. Nothing changed except that Faramir didn't feel inclined to maintain that old fiction of legality.

This clarifies Elrond's complex motivation for setting Aragorn such a high bar for marrying Arwen. He wasn't being hissy like movie-Elrond. He actually loved Aragorn as much as Arwen, calling him "son" the whole time that he laid this restriction on the lad, for indeed he had raised him as a foster-father. But he had watched his beloved brother's descendants dwindle into vagabonds, generation after generation after generation, who were really kidding themselves about taking responsibility for their people, when in fact they could have accomplished more from a throne. Elros's heirs needed some tough love, and Elrond finally saw a way to give it.

Everything else he said mattered, too. He had no reason to allow his daughter to throw away her immortality in exchange for a homeless existence without comfort or dignity. But he also believed that Aragorn could become King if he had to, and Elrond would not let either of them be less than their best.

My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.


Beren IV
Gondor


Mar 9 2008, 1:46am

Post #4 of 11 (1160 views)
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Ain't love grand? [In reply to] Can't Post

C. What has happened? Does Frodo have a vision of Aragorn or has Aragorn changed with the stay in Lórien, a prefiguring of the Aragorn we see in The Two Towers? Or is it something else?

He's thinking about Arwen. You would think that they were married already!

Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist


Entwife Wandlimb
Lorien


Mar 9 2008, 9:00pm

Post #5 of 11 (1193 views)
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the voice of Amroth [In reply to] Can't Post

A. How does this thought fit in with the larger story of FoTR?
We see the light of Lothlórien bordering the impenetrable darkness of the Enemy. Galadriel and Sauron are the two opposing forces.

B. Why the South Wind?
Sam says he feels as if he is inside of a song, and earlier Legolas sang of Amroth, the former King of Lórien and star-crossed lover of Nimrodel . They were lost at sea. Legolas said, “And when the wind is in the South the voice of Amroth comes up from the sea…” Now, “the South Wind blew upon Cerin Amroth and sighed among the branches.” Amroth mourns his lost love.

C. What has happened? Does Frodo have a vision of Aragorn or has Aragorn changed with the stay in Lórien, a prefiguring of the Aragorn we see in The Two Towers? Or is it something else?

“… as Frodo looked at him he knew that he beheld things as they once had been in this same place.” Here is another vision of the past, courtesy of Lothlorien.



ArathornJax
Lorien


Mar 9 2008, 11:17pm

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Perceive/Perception [In reply to] Can't Post

A. Galaderial and those on the council knew what Sauron was doing, and perceived how he was going about doing it. Sauron though, may suspect where and who has the elven rings but he cannot perceive. Gandalf will later make an observation that Sauron will not have perceived that anyone would attempt to destroy the ring instead of using it to seize power from him. Thus it is not until the very end when Frodo puts on the ring inside Mt. Doom that Sauron realizes his error.

Thus here we see a micro-causism where Sauron and Galaderial are battling, and that is also happening on a larger scale elsewhere.

B. The south wind is interesting because it is winter, and in the northern hemisphere where storms come from the north/northwest. Prior to the storm arriving, there are usually strong south winds that warm the air and bring a rather false sense of security regarding the weather. Here we can see perhaps how 1. Lothlorien is kept warm and seemingly at odds with the outside world in terms of warmth and growth (with the ring of Galaderial as well) and 2. a calm before the storm that will hit in a month or two (March 3019).
C. Frodo is a ringbearer and more importantly he has an "elvish" air about him that allows him to be more perceptive to things like that. I believe that Frodo is seeing a memory of Aragorn and Aragorn revealed in his kingly dignity (as we will see later at various points).

Very interesting comment by Aragorn. Though I do think there is a significant difference between the movie Aragorn and the book, for me this is one of those large differences. Here Aragorn is revealing his motivation for being a part of the company and part of moving forward to clain the kingship of Gondor and Arnor. Yes, it will reunite his people and their values and yes it will improve life for those in his kingdom, and yes it is his foreordination so to speak, but for him, the man, it is all about love. Aragorn does all that he does for the love he has of Arwen. To marry her will require him to regain the crown of Arnor and Gondor, and nothing less according to Arwen's father, Elrond. Thus in a way, Aragorn's motivation is selfish, for he wants to obtain the deepest desire of his heart, Arwen and her hand in marriage. Tolkien stated in several letters that the story of Beren and Luthien and Arwen and Aragorn was a love story of the greatest degree.

Thus for me, the movie version took away from me a critical part of the story of Aragorn and Arwen. There was no doubt for either, and both knew that the quest of Mt. Doom would either bring about all that they desired, or end their dreams and hopes and result in their deaths. It was here, in Lothlorien that Arwen and Aragorn had plotted their troth. That troth ensured Aragorn to move forward to re-claiming his rights/destiny, while it was here that Arwen made her decision on mortality vs. immortality. Thus failure of the quest would not only have killed Aragorn, but I imagine Arwen would have died.

So, though I understand why PJ and company did what they did in the movie, I thought it minimized their love story, and thus the story of each character.

" . . . (we are ) too engrossed in thinking of everything as a preparation or training or making one fit -- for what? At any minute it is what we are and are doing, not what we plan to be and do that counts."

J.R.R. Tolkien in his 6 October 1940 letter to his son Michael Tolkien.




Dreamdeer
Valinor


Mar 10 2008, 3:34am

Post #7 of 11 (1169 views)
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Wow, thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

B. Why the South Wind?
Sam says he feels as if he is inside of a song, and earlier Legolas sang of Amroth, the former King of Lórien and star-crossed lover of Nimrodel . They were lost at sea. Legolas said, “And when the wind is in the South the voice of Amroth comes up from the sea…” Now, “the South Wind blew upon Cerin Amroth and sighed among the branches.” Amroth mourns his lost love.



Ooh, I missed that! After all these years, it's wonderful to still find new things in these books that can surprise and delight me!

My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Mar 22 2009, 7:49am

Post #8 of 11 (1147 views)
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Ah, but per your earlier post [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
But wouldn’t his heart be with Arwen rather than the place they met?


... a part of Arwen, like a part of Frodo and Aragorn, is also always in Lórien.

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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Mar 22 2009, 7:50am

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Could Thorongil have claimed the kingship? [In reply to] Can't Post

Darkstone has also suggested that before. Tolkien doesn’t actually say why Aragorn walked away, but it’s a point worth further consideration.

As for Gondor’s rejection of Arvedui’s claim, that actually happened 106 years before Gondor’s last king, Eärnur, disappeared after riding to meet the Witch-king at Minas Morgul. Arvedui still had a kingdom when he made his claim, but his son Aranarth was merely a chieftain when the next opening appeared. Also, the northern palantíri had been lost, so communication was much reduced.

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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Mar 22 2009, 7:51am

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Nice thought! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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Dreamdeer
Valinor


Mar 22 2009, 9:24pm

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Palantiri [In reply to] Can't Post

I hadn't reckoned in the reduction in communication--good point!

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!

 
 

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