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dubulous
Rohan
Nov 25 2014, 7:25pm
Post #26 of 46
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I also don't have any particular recollection of what Dain's weapon was. To me that never stood out even though I've read The Hobbit several times.
I'll probably pay attention to it now the next time I read it, but until now it's never really registered in my mind in any particular way.
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dubulous
Rohan
Nov 25 2014, 7:27pm
Post #27 of 46
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A lot of the dwarves have axes of various kinds. Maybe they wanted Dain to have something that stands out and is unique to him. He shows up pretty late in the movies and probably doesn't get a lot of introduction time, so it's important that he will be easily and immediately recognizable, and having a weapon that is unique could be part of that.
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Orc Berserker
Bree
Nov 25 2014, 7:31pm
Post #28 of 46
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The Mighty Thor carries a hammer, and I wouldn't want to mess with that...
Warhammers are notoriously deadly, and to wield one you would have to be immensely strong and skilled to use it. It's a show of status as well as intimidation.
You can block a sword or an axe, but if someone swings a warhammer at you, you're basically *****ed.
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Bishop
Gondor
Nov 25 2014, 8:06pm
Post #30 of 46
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Then all the Dwarves should have hammers
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Carnivoran
The Shire
Nov 25 2014, 8:22pm
Post #31 of 46
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Or he has a red axe that has not been shown....
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I wouldn't be surprised with Dain is armed to the teeth. He may use his axe after the hammer gets lost or destroyed. I would not rule it out yet.
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Orc Berserker
Bree
Nov 25 2014, 8:33pm
Post #32 of 46
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There are a lot in these films
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Dwalin carried one initially. (remember he threw it to Ori who took out a Warg with it)
Thrain had one. (at the battle of Moria)
I think Thror had one as well (Moria again)
As Dain is royalty, it would make sense for him to have a ornate, over-the-top, garish weapon like a warhammer.
If you look at the first WETA Chronicles book (AUJ) there are a lot of Warhammers in concept art for the Moria dwarves. My guess is that for the Company in AUJ it didn't make sense for all of them to be carrying around massive warhammers since they knew they would be travelling long distance.
We may see a lot of Iron Hill dwarves using warhammers.
It may also come down to personal taste. Thorin, Fili and Kili might favour speed and agility over brute strength. Gloin obviously favours axes over everything (and why not?), and passed this 'axe-fetish' down to Gimli.
If Dain loves to smash things to a pulp instead of jumping around all over the place like a 'bloody elf', then the warhammer is a perfect weapon! (I'd love it if he was a bit of a weapon snob, and turned his nose up at any dwarf 'too weak' to use a hammer)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Nov 25 2014, 8:38pm
Post #33 of 46
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A man with a quote - thank you!
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And yes I tend to agree, if we were betting folks we may have the shortest odds on Dain having had an axe at the BOFA in the mind's eye of the author.
However, given that Tolkien made no mention of an axe in TH and only two mentions of it anywhere in the texts, I'm not sure we can classify it as a "change", and certainly it seems to have been of no particular importance, as you suggest.
Now, to the much more important follow on question - why does everyone think Dain's axe was double-headed?
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Bishop
Gondor
Nov 25 2014, 9:18pm
Post #34 of 46
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However, given that Tolkien made no mention of an axe in TH and only two mentions of it anywhere in the texts, I'm not sure we can classify it as a "change", and certainly it seems to have been of no particular importance, as you suggest.
That's a bit like saying if Tolkien never mentioned that Balin had a big red clown nose it wouldn't technically be a change from the book if Jackson gave him one. At least in this case we DO have a description of Dain's weapon, and it's a red axe. And I guess it's of no particular importance, except for that one time that he KILLED AZOG with it. :D
Now, to the much more important follow on question - why does everyone think Dain's axe was double-headed? Now for that you'd need to ask the LEGO people.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Nov 25 2014, 9:44pm
Post #35 of 46
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We have a mention that he used a red axe 150 years prior to the events of TH and a mention that he used an axe (colour unspecified) 60-80 years after the events of TH.
Other than supposition, we have no evidence as to what weapon he used during TH. You might feel Dain was a consistent sort of chap, others might feel he liked a bit of variety now and again but there's no firm statements either way - so it feels rather strong to label it a "change".
I'm not sure about red noses but if I showed you a photo of a man aged 20 wearing a red jacket, and another photo of the same man wearing a similar jacket (though hard to see the colour) aged 80, would you really believe the only credible option was that he had worn the same jacket every day across the intervening years?
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Bishop
Gondor
Nov 25 2014, 9:48pm
Post #36 of 46
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You don't think that a weapon, a weapon in Tolkien's magnificent universe, and one that is used by a future king to kill a major foe on the battlefield carries more importance than.......a jacket?
(This post was edited by Bishop on Nov 25 2014, 9:48pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Nov 25 2014, 10:04pm
Post #37 of 46
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Sorry perhaps I'm not being very clear. It's nothing to do with importance (though the fact it is an axe doesn't seem important to me, as it happens).
I'm suggesting that one mention of an axe more than a century earlier and one (possibly of a different axe) almost a century later isn't an awfully clear indication that Dain had one at BOFA. He might have, he might not - no particular evidence is available - as with the jacket analogy.
I suppose we could ask the question the other way around, however - if the axe is so important, why would Tolkien not have mentioned it in either TH or the revisions he included for the second edition?
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adam17017
The Shire
Nov 25 2014, 10:16pm
Post #38 of 46
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Brilliantly put Spriggan! That's very true, where exactly in THE HOBBIT does Tolkien say that Dain has a red axe? I don't remember fully, but I don't think he does. Love the discussion guys!
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Thrain II
Lorien
Nov 25 2014, 10:29pm
Post #39 of 46
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quite possible. 
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Bishop
Gondor
Nov 25 2014, 10:30pm
Post #40 of 46
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Obviously we can agree that weapons in Tolkien's universe carry a great deal of meaning, as they do in any mythology. While others here are correct that Dain's axe is not given the same kind of meaning as other weapons, it's hardly a stretch to imagine that it's HIS weapon. The weapon he wields. But Jackson's decision seems odd to me for other reasons.
For example yes, Dain's weapon wasn't mentioned in the Hobbit. But it is mentioned specifically in the Appendices, written after the Hobbit, and Jackson's go-to source for all of his ancillary storytelling in these films. Furthermore, Dain is described as killing Azog with the red axe. So now we have a film situation where Azog is actually on the battlefield with Dain. Why not just have him use the damned axe!!
I'm not alone in my thinking here. Why do you think Dain is always portrayed as carrying an axe? In lego sets, games, ancillary material. It was not some random decision on the part of all of these people.
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Bishop
Gondor
Nov 25 2014, 10:32pm
Post #41 of 46
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and awesome if that happened. He's probably got weapons all over him.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Nov 25 2014, 10:45pm
Post #42 of 46
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Narsil, Merry's dagger etc. have a lot of meaning as objects. Boromir's sword or Aragorn's bow don't.
Dain's red axe may have been something he used for two centuries or just the once. Who knows. We can interpret as we please, but I'm suggesting that not choosing to share an interpretation is not the same as a "change" from a stated fact.
I don't think we are in any disagreement that the appendices mention in a single line that he had a red axe 14 decades earlier at Moria - but they are silent on whether he had it at BOFA. I doubt he will be killing Azog in the film so I don't even think there will be any read across there.
I'm sure you aren't alone - it's rare to find a lone view on the net! But I'm not sure what Lego sets and the like have to offer to the question. I seem to recall Dwalin having an emerald green axe in one but I don't know what we are supposed to take from that!
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dubulous
Rohan
Nov 25 2014, 11:06pm
Post #43 of 46
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I don't know, to me it doesn't really seem like any particular decision in all these games and lego sets. The axe seems to be the basic go-to weapon of the dwarves, made popular by Gimli, so portraying Dain with an axe would really be just continuing with that flow rather than a specific decision that Dain, in particular, should have an axe. I've never really seen, until now, anyone fixated on Dain having an axe. If he's been portrayed with an axe, it's just as likely because nobody's taken the step to imagine what else he could wield. Now he has a warhammer and I think it has the potential of being a cool, memorable weapon. It would be one thing if, instead of Narsil/Anduril, Aragorn had been wielding a fearsome mace, or if instead of Sting, Bilbo had found a nice hobbit-sized spear to use - because these are actual, named, important weapons featured in the story - but I think Dain's weapon of choice in The Hobbit is fair game, because it has not been highlighted in any way in the text. It's no different than giving all the 13 dwarves of Thorin's company different, individual looks and weapons because there's very little in the book to go by.
I'm not alone in my thinking here. Why do you think Dain is always portrayed as carrying an axe? In lego sets, games, ancillary material. It was not some random decision on the part of all of these people.
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Bishop
Gondor
Nov 25 2014, 11:27pm
Post #44 of 46
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The axe seems to be the basic go-to weapon of the dwarves, made popular by Gimli, so portraying Dain with an axe would really be just continuing with that flow rather than a specific decision that Dain, in particular, should have an axe. I've never really seen, until now, anyone fixated on Dain having an axe. Yes. Exact for the part when Tolkien describes him as killing Azog with his red axe, and then fighting later with his axe.
If he's been portrayed with an axe, it's just as likely because nobody's taken the step to imagine what else he could wield. It's possible that all the people were more or less lazy and decided that Dain, like most Dwarves, should have an axe, and didn't reference the part where Dain is described as killing Azog with his red axe.
Now he has a warhammer and I think it has the potential of being a cool, memorable weapon. It will probably look amazing, I agree. Will it look more amazing than a giant red axe? I'd say that's the very definition of subjective.
I think Dain's weapon of choice in The Hobbit is fair game, because it has not been highlighted in any way in the text. It's no different than giving all the 13 dwarves of Thorin's company different, individual looks and weapons because there's very little in the book to go by. Exactly. Except when Tolkien writes that Dain killed Azog with his red axe.
(This post was edited by Bishop on Nov 25 2014, 11:29pm)
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Cirashala
Valinor
Nov 25 2014, 11:29pm
Post #45 of 46
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Well, it could be confusing to the audience
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because Gloin is also a red haired, full bearded dwarf- and he has an axe as his main weapon
Thanks to Gimli, and the importance of his axes in LOTR (inherited from his father), it is more important for continuity for Gloin to have the axes, rather than Dain (whom the general audience knows exists as a person by one mere mention in AUJ).
So this may have been a decision made in order to differentiate the two dwarves- I did see that the warhammer still has red on it, IIRC, which is a nice nod to the character's noble axe of the book
I definitely like the theory mentioned above as well that Dain has a "real dwarf's weapon" in terms of the warhammer requiring someone of great strength and skill to be able to use to devastating effect
But as a whole, while I get it, I still wish he'd have had an enormous battle-axe, simply because Tolkien actually went out of his way to have his dwarves NOT use warhammers, as opposed to all the other tropes out there that do. It's one way in which Tolkien's rich, vast world differs from the more "pop culture" dwarves of video games and such 
Though I still maintain that Dwalin's hammer is really, really bad(youknowwhat) 
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Bishop
Gondor
Nov 25 2014, 11:38pm
Post #46 of 46
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It reminds me of when they changed Saruman to "Aruman" because they were afraid the general moviegoing audience would confuse "Sauron" and "Saruman" in the Bakshi version of LOTR. Of course, they really messed up because sometimes his name is Saruman and sometimes Aruman in the same scene. Whoops!
In general I think the mohawk will be more than enough to make them distinguishable. And I have no doubt that the hammer is going to look great.
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