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delius82
Rivendell
Nov 24 2014, 3:06am
Post #1 of 25
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What type of elf is Galadriel?
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I know she's a High Elf of the West, but is she Noldor, Sindar? Thanks for your replies.
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Nov 24 2014, 3:58am
Post #2 of 25
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The Encyclopedia of Arda has some useful information on her:
http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/g/galadriel.html
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Nov 24 2014, 10:48pm
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According to The Encyclopedia of Arda, One of the greatest of all the Eldar, described as second only in power to Fëanor himself, and said to surpass even Fëanor in wisdom ("The Eldar" incorporating all three houses, Vanyar Noldor, and Teleri).
Frankly, I'd say she greatly exceeded Fëanor in wisdom. Although he was prodigiously talented, he was also prodigiously pigheaded and arrogant, hardly what I'd call wise.
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Nov 24 2014, 10:49pm)
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ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Nov 25 2014, 12:42am
Post #4 of 25
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to mean knowledgeable and not in the conventional sense we use it. Feanor is only noted as being "perhaps" greater. I agree with you Galadriel is better.
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squire
Half-elven
Nov 25 2014, 1:06am
Post #5 of 25
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How am I the greatest? Let me count the ways
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I guess the Encyclopedia of Arda is basing its summary on these two statements by Tolkien's commentators on Elf-stuff (i.e., in the indefinite voice he affected when writing chronicles). In a very late manuscript about Galadriel (late 1960s), they say how great she was in slightly different ways:
Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years.
[Feanor] begged three times for a tress, but Galadriel would not give him even one hair. These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, were unfriends for ever. (Both from Unfinished Tales, "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn"; bolds by squire)I'm not sure enough about my elf-lore to guess what other Eldar there are than the "Eldar of Valinor"; and when I hear "greatest of the Noldor" I always assume there were some equally great lights among the Vanyar, of whom we hear almost nothing in the Silmarillion for various dramatic reasons. So it goes: in both statements, Galadriel's greatness is clearly very great, but how great just cannot be said.
I've always loved Tolkien's corny Victorian convention about wisdom among his male heroes and beauty among the females: whoever is the focus of a particular legend turns out to be incomparably wise or beautiful for the time being. Then it's on to another legend, and another incomparably wise or beautiful aristocrat strides onto the stage, pushing his or her predecessor to one side like Miss America getting her crown.
Now, to me the fact that Tolkien was prepared in this document to credit both incomparable wisdom (male virtue) and incomparable beauty (female virtue) to Galadriel says a lot about how confused he had been about her gender ever since he invented her, when she stepped into the story right over the lump of a consort who was, in the drafts, supposed to be the Fellowship's next (male, of course) counselor in need, a la Elrond, etc.
squire online:
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FoundEntwife
Rivendell
Nov 25 2014, 2:54am
Post #6 of 25
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a Noldor and one of the greatest of that race of elves. The Vanyar are greater than both the Noldor and the Teleri but we don't know as much abut them.
This tale grew in the telling. . .
http://pencilword.blogspot.com
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Nov 25 2014, 3:11am
Post #7 of 25
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...is the most unfortunate character in the books, in terms of his treatment by his author, who never quite decided who he was (either a nephew of Thingol whom Galadriel picked up in Doriath or a Teleri noble) or what he was doing there. Not to mentioned being saddled with a name which, translated into Quenya, is Teleporno.
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Nov 25 2014, 3:11am)
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ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Nov 25 2014, 5:45am
Post #9 of 25
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where does it say that the Vanyar are the greatest
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the only attribute to them is that they are the Fair Elves and Ingwe considered the high lord of all elves but no comments about the Vanyar being the greatest. When Tolkien says that Galadriel and Feanor are the greatest of the Eldar that includes all three kindreds, Vanyar, Noldor and Telerei.
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Nerven
Rivendell
Nov 25 2014, 6:31am
Post #10 of 25
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When he says that she and Feanor are the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, it means that they are considered greater than the Teleri and Vanyar (apparently even greater than the kings, I think it´s due to their spiritual potential, either you are born with it, or you are not)the Vanyar are the nearest to the Valar, but I always got the impression that the Noldor in general are considered to be the greatest bunch of the elves and that the two greatest of the Noldor are at the same time the greatest of alle the Eldar (including later ages). I think the quotes makes it clear, but Luthein was considered to be the greatest over all.
These two kinsfolk [Galadriel and Feanor*], the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, were unfriends for ever. The footnote: *Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Lúthien Tinúviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves. I really love that quote, so Luthien, Feanor and Galadriel are the chief matter of their legends and histories. I really have the feeling that the movie will do justice to this amazing character, I hope I won´t be disappointed.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Nov 25 2014, 7:14pm
Post #11 of 25
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I'm not sure enough about my elf-lore to guess what other Eldar there are than the "Eldar of Valinor";...
The Eldar of Middle-earth I suppose? In other words, the Sindar.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Nov 25 2014, 7:47pm
Post #12 of 25
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my pedantry + canon = rolled eyes
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... by his author, who never quite decided who he was (either a nephew of Thingol whom Galadriel picked up in Doriath or a Teleri noble) or what he was doing there.
I don't quite agree that JRRT never decided, although admittedly one can call this 'canon' judgement. So while you are correct in a sense I still annoyingly point out (to anyone who might care) that JRRT twice himself published that Celeborn was Sindarin...
... once in 1955 (The Return of the King) and again in 1967 or 1968 (RGEO).
And for those of you rolling your eyes at my pedantry (I know you're out there), I think to characterize the matter (Sinda of Doriath versus Telerin prince) as never quite decided can suggest that Tolkien had never taken this much of a leap here, so to speak... which I think is a leap which Tolkien himself must respect in some measure, as he changes his mind in his private study.
Also I'm not convinced Tolkien had even remembered what he had published versus what he had written. The posthumously published notion of Celeborn as a Telerin noble dates to 1968 or later (I can't find any text or letter that is certainly earlier anyway)... in that 'maybe JRRT forgot' stage, in my opinion.
Anyway as a Sinda no real need for a Telerin name, although...
Not to mentioned being saddled with a name which, translated into Quenya, is Teleporno.
... in a very late letter (1972) the form is Telporno... if anyone finds that less unfortunate, that is. Probably no one.
Technically Tel(e)porno is Telerin. The ancient stem yielded tyelep-, tyelpe in Quenya.. but also in Quenya the form telpe became usual due to the influence of Telerin, as the Teleri prized silver above gold and their silversmiths were esteemed by the Noldor.
More pedantry, yes. I'm hip deep in it already here, so why not.
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Nov 26 2014, 12:42am
Post #13 of 25
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Tolkien was not the greatest fan of people been the greatest
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Or so it would appear. Most who were the greatest tended to come to a bad end or have other flaws in his works. Feanor as said, the greatest skilled of the Elves, Melkor was the greatest of the Valar and look what happened to him. Sauron was maybe the greatest of the Maia, or at least was so at the time of the end of the Third age, the Numenoreans were the greatest civilization in the world, etc. In fact, some of his major heroes were not really the greatest, Hobbits, or the outlaw Beren. In fact, I think that Tolkien says something about this in one of his letters. So does Gandalf, I think in a meeting with Elrond.
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Nov 26 2014, 12:48am
Post #14 of 25
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Maybe off-hand I can't quite remember all of her deeds, but how great was she? I don't seem to recall her making any great jewels or inspiring her people or anything like that. Whilst I can understand her longing to see the lands over the sea, didn't she more or less play second fiddle to Melian in the First age. All right, I suppose that she did create a magical force-field around Lorien, but I would say that was about it.
The other thing about Galadriel was how did she actually become Queen of Lorien, what was her claim? Was it just that she married Celeborn? Remember that she was Noldor, mostly, from over the sea, and the ordinary Elves of Lorien were Sindar and did not make the journey. Might not the Sindar have preferred one of their own to rule them?
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Nov 26 2014, 4:46am
Post #15 of 25
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She was the "Lady" of Lorien. She and Celeborn considered that they were the guardians of that realm, not "rulers".
As others have said, she was of impeachable heritage. An adventurous sort, she joined the rebellion led by Fëonor, but did not participate in the kinslaying, but followed Finarfin and company later. For many years she lived in Doriath, which is where she met Celeborn. As for being "second fiddle" to Melian, you have to realize that Melian was not an Elf, but actually a Maia, who was married to Thingol, founder of the Sindar. After the War of Wrath, she and Celeborn took some survivors to Eregion, where they dwelt with Celebrimbor. It was she who counseled Celebrimbor in the hiding of the Elven Rings, and when Eregion was attacked, Galadriel was entrusted with one of the Three. Her ring was Nenya, the Ring of Water. She and Celebrimbor then moved to Lorien.
So, she was very great, indeed, by heritage, lineage, and history, as well as wisdom and beauty.
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FoundEntwife
Rivendell
Nov 26 2014, 5:12am
Post #16 of 25
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I got that from the Silmarillion
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The Vanyar are the highest of the high elves, therefore, the greatest. And Galadriel has Vanyar heritage.
When I say greatest, I'm not talking about brute-force power or political power. They are greater in wisdom than the Noldor and the Teleri.
This tale grew in the telling. . .
http://pencilword.blogspot.com
(This post was edited by FoundEntwife on Nov 26 2014, 5:16am)
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Nerven
Rivendell
Nov 26 2014, 7:15am
Post #17 of 25
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That what makes Galadriel in Tolkiens eyes "great" are not such obvious deeds, as Feanor and Luthien did, in her case it are small things. I think it is in part related to spiritual power.
she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth. Even among the Eldar she was accounted beautiful, and her hair was held a marvel unmatched. From her earliest years she had a marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others, but judged them with mercy and understanding, and she withheld her goodwill from none save only Fëanor. she had dreams of far lands and dominions that might be her own to order as she would without tutelage. Yet deeper still there dwelt in her the noble and generous spirit of the Vanyar, and a reverence for the Valar that she could not forget. She had those rebellios spirit but at the same time she loved the Valar.
She has a multifaceted character, that sets herself apart from the others.
Then of course there a such small actions like casting a mist to cover Eorls troops, sending Gwahir to search for Gandalf, the gifts she gave to the fellowship, the politics she did with the rings, for example and that she came to Lorien, the place which is most near to the enemy to help the people there, as a "guardian" not a ruler and the most important she did not take the ring, although she didn´t know by then she was pardoned (if we believe in the version where she in still banned) and had to face either a world where Sauron rules or a world where time, at least for her passes by too fast.
Not her deeds make Galadriel great IMO, in her case it´s more the character, she´s flawed but at the same time not (at the end redeemed) and profound, there no other elf (we know of) which shares her attributes.
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Nerven
Rivendell
Nov 26 2014, 7:18am
Post #18 of 25
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"The Vanyar are the highest of the high elves, therefore, the greatest. And Galadriel has Vanyar heritage.
When I say greatest, I'm not talking about brute-force power or political power. They are greater in wisdom than the Noldor and the Teleri."
But is Noldor not another description for wise elves, I believe somewhere it is stated that the Noldor were the wisest and that Finwe was in fact the wisest of the Children of the world.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Nov 26 2014, 2:05pm
Post #19 of 25
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Galadriel is referred to as a queen of Lorien by Gimli (The Lord of the Rings), and is referred to as a queen of Lorien in the posthumously published Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age (The Silmarillion)...
... that said, there are other posthumously published sources where Tolkien states she is not one (in the 'Zimmerman letter' for example), or did not want to be considered a 'Queen', and you'll find these often quoted in web summations of Galadriel's history. Anyway she is essentially the co-ruler of Lorien, with Celeborn.
For myself I do not follow the history of Galadriel and Celeborn as exactly laid out according to the text Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn (odd though that might seem), as it is in such an unfinished state Christopher Tokien chose to paraphrase much of it, but mostly because there are later texts to be considered here...
... in any case, skipping the grey areas of Galadriel's movements in the Second Age...
... the latest history seems to be that Galadriel and Celeborn were welcomed in Lorien at a time when Lorien was in peril: including the notable detail that Amroth their lord had left the land and ended up drowned in the Sea. This was relatively later on in the Third Age. So again, when Galadriel and Celeborn took up rule and government, it appears that the Silvan Elves welcomed them due to their current problems...
... and they had already accepted the rule of a Sindarin Elf as well. The Elves of Lorien were mostly Silvan Elves (or East-elves), although earlier ruled by the Sindarin lord Amdir (avoiding the 'Malgalad' question for now), and later his son Amroth.
Galadriel and Celeborn had visited the realm earlier, however when the rule was still Sindarin.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Nov 26 2014, 2:13pm
Post #20 of 25
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But is Noldor not another description for wise elves, I believe somewhere it is stated that the Noldor were the wisest and that Finwe was in fact the wisest of the Children of the world.
It's true that the name itself refers to wisdom, but...
... in Quendi And Eldar Tolkien wrote that the name was probably older than Vanyar, and may have been made before the March. It was given to the Second Clan by the others, and meant 'the wise' (those who know), as the Noldor 'indeed early showed the greatest talents of all the Elves both for intellectual pursuits and for technical skills' (*ÑGOL- 'knowledge, wisdom, lore').
In the Shibboleth of Feanor JRRT appears to be on this track, considering note 30 especially. Tolkien wrote that ñolo was the stem of words referring to wisdom, and noted: 'Wisdom' -- but not in the sense 'sagacity, sound judgment (founded on experience and sufficient knowledge)'; 'knowledge' would be nearer, or 'Philosophy' in its older applications which included science. (...) the Noldor had been from the earliest times most eminent in and concerned with this kind of 'wisdom'...'
dated 1968 or later
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Nov 26 2014, 2:26pm
Post #21 of 25
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For myself I do not follow the history of Galadriel and Celeborn as exactly laid out according to the text Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn (odd though that might seem), as it is in such an unfinished state Christopher Tokien chose to paraphrase much of it, but mostly because there are later texts to be considered here...
I don't think that is odd at all. In fact it makes perfect sense to me, since I would say the same about myself. But then, I would number you among the Wise (usually). Or should I say the Nómin?
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Nov 26 2014, 2:49pm
Post #22 of 25
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And I love the addition of 'usually' [not being sarcastic there, I needed a smile to start today].
And incidentally, I believe it was you who began a nice thread with respect to the 'queen' question, IIRC (perhaps at your own forum if not here somewhere). I don't know how wise I am being to arguably 'downplay' several Tolkien references about this (at least three I think)! Posthumously published or not.
Although probably if someone had posted Galadriel was a Queen I would 'up-play' any statements that she wasn't.
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Annael
Immortal
Nov 26 2014, 3:09pm
Post #23 of 25
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not the only time that happened to him
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bout how confused he had been about her gender ever since he invented her, when she stepped into the story right over the lump of a consort who was, in the drafts, supposed to be the Fellowship's next (male, of course) counselor in need, a la Elrond, etc.
I think Eowyn was a big surprise to him too, that she would turn out to be more of a hero than her brother.
Whatever he may have said in his letters about women, he had the wisdom to let his characters - female as well as male - become who they really wanted to be.
Since evidence can be adduced and interpreted to corroborate a virtually limitless array of world views, the human challenge is to engage that world view or set of perspectives which brings forth the most valuable, life-enhancing consequences.
- Richard Tarnas, The Passion of the Western Mind
* * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Nov 27 2014, 12:02am
Post #24 of 25
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i looked through the silmarillion
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and could only find what I wrote about them being fair elves, I always had the impression that the vanyar were the greatest after reading the silmarillion in days gone by, but after examining it I can find nothing to actually substantively support this notion
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ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Nov 27 2014, 12:04am
Post #25 of 25
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I really like the sentiment of your last sentence
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bout how confused he had been about her gender ever since he invented her, when she stepped into the story right over the lump of a consort who was, in the drafts, supposed to be the Fellowship's next (male, of course) counselor in need, a la Elrond, etc. I think Eowyn was a big surprise to him too, that she would turn out to be more of a hero than her brother. Whatever he may have said in his letters about women, he had the wisdom to let his characters - female as well as male - become who they really wanted to be. |
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