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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Nov 24 2014, 7:12pm
Post #26 of 46
(455 views)
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Sorry my point was that (spoilers)
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Frodo's description indicates that all the action and dialogue of the driving out has occurred and been discussed prior to that line I.e. It's not a plot line that is left open ended.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Nov 24 2014, 7:37pm
Post #27 of 46
(438 views)
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Great catch as even trying to go frame by frame tough!
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She sort of flings the ring hand at something...flash and then .it appears pieces of rock/stone etc are flying by.
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Nov 24 2014, 9:01pm
Post #28 of 46
(400 views)
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but of course it totally contradicts the lore which says that the Elven rings could not be used as weapons to destroy, as their power lay in preservation and restoration...
http://oakroadsystems.com/...ingfaq.htm#Q3-Powers
At the Council, Elrond says, “The Three were not made ... as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained.” [LotR II 2 (p286)]
Tolkien underlines this in a letter: after Sauron’s fall at the end of the Second Age, “the Three Rings of the Elves, wielded by secret guardians, are operative in preserving the memory of the beauty of old, maintaining enchanted enclaves of peace where Time seems to stand still and decay is restrained, a semblance of the bliss of the True West.” [L #131 (p157)] “Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age” says something similar: “those who had them in their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world.” [Silm: Rings (p288)]
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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delius82
Rivendell
Nov 25 2014, 2:25am
Post #29 of 46
(304 views)
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^Maybe she's using another type of magic...
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Other than the ring. And for all we know she could be more defensive than offensive in this scene. I'm glad they show her true power as a High Elf of the West rather than reducing her role as just palliative healing for Gandalf.
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Nov 25 2014, 7:25am
Post #30 of 46
(265 views)
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...not considering the reference o "The Power of the Three" which can only refer to the Elven Ring - or their bearers at the very least...
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Nov 25 2014, 8:54am
Post #31 of 46
(256 views)
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How would the films demonstrate that?
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I can't see how they could differentiate between this is the ring, that is Galadriel herself or the other is a combination of the two.
Surely it will be down to interpretation won't it?
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Nov 25 2014, 9:05am
Post #32 of 46
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but having Galadriel use the hand that bears Nenya and having a track entitled "The Power of the Three" is surely leading the audience's perception in a certain direction?
Personally, I would prefer to see her use the phial to push back the darkness and keep the Nazgul at bay until reinforcements arrive. This may still happen, of course...
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
(This post was edited by Eleniel on Nov 25 2014, 9:06am)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Nov 25 2014, 11:57am
Post #33 of 46
(238 views)
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Well that doesn't pin us down, I don't think
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In terms of which hand she uses it's only a one in two option! Although now that I come to type it, Galadriel using magic hair flicks has some appeal.
Equally I think a soundtrack track title is quite tangential in terms of interpreting the film seen on the screen by the viewing audience.
That is not to say for a moment that the interpretation of the ring's involvment is not a valid one but I don't think we are likely to get into any situation so clearly defined that it gives us any major issues. I doubt very much we will see fireballs being fired from the ring itself, for example, or any other directly linked use as a tool of offensive warfare.
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Girdle of Melian
Lorien
Nov 25 2014, 4:31pm
Post #34 of 46
(207 views)
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I don't know why but it kind of reminded me of the Queen of Narnia..I hope it's not to OTT...
Well, at least she and Gandalf had the same hair flying back effect against Sauron as it seems...but Glady's hair is more groomed compared to Gandy
I hope their portray Galadriel's athletic/warrior side, which is what I'm more curious to see, on how a Noldorin differs from a regular elf....but it may just be too over cartoony considering what we've seen Legolas do by far...lol.
can't wait....
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Faleel
Rohan
Nov 25 2014, 4:37pm
Post #35 of 46
(210 views)
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There is no such track title.
Its The Guardians of the Three.
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Girdle of Melian
Lorien
Nov 25 2014, 7:00pm
Post #36 of 46
(194 views)
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Whether it is possible for Galadriel to maybe use the light of Phial without having to keep holding the phial itself..I mean the container itself is just a container I think but it's the power of Galadriel (or whatever she uses) that's keeping it there...no?
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MirielCelebel
Rivendell
Nov 25 2014, 7:19pm
Post #37 of 46
(192 views)
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I was really hoping to see her in armor
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but this shot makes me happy nonetheless. Cate is amazing and Galadriel will kick ass no matter what!! Thank you for sharing!
"The Road goes ever on..."
Writing Bliss
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Nov 25 2014, 9:15pm
Post #38 of 46
(178 views)
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Might be a bit of a contradiction on Tolkien's part...
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The Istari were forbidden from attempting to use force against Sauron, however the one time in the lore that the Istari actually did come into physical contact with Sauron, they used force against him.
I remain hopeful that Saruman gets to do most of the heavy lifting against Sauron, however it does seem to me that for some odd reason Jackson, Boyens, and Walsh want to play up Galadriel's role.
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Nov 25 2014, 10:01pm
Post #39 of 46
(163 views)
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Ah, but did they actually come against him?
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I believe Tolkien possibly regretted what he wrote in TH about driving The Necromancer from Mirkwood. The account given in FotR, during the Council of Elrond seems to be a case of trying to explain the inconsistency of having the Istari attack Sauron directly when it seems to contradict what was later published in UT. Tolkien would have us believe that yes, the Wise did mount an assault on DG with the objective of routing Sauron...but of course, he goes on to say that they found Sauron had anticipated their actions, and had already fled. Therefore, the direct confrontation could be said to never have taken place! I've always thought that Jackson could have had his cake and eaten it with his adaptation by staging the assault with the "showdown" between the Wise and The Necromancer to turn out to be against a phantom/illusion. Perhaps it sounds corny and clichéd, but at least it would be honouring canon...
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Nov 25 2014, 10:58pm
Post #40 of 46
(161 views)
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Isn't certainly or even probably the case. It's not sure either way, though I tend to think the balance of suggestions weighs towards a direct confrontation of some sort.
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Nov 26 2014, 7:52am
Post #41 of 46
(125 views)
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'But we were too late, as Elrond foresaw. Sauron also had watched us, and had long prepared against our stroke, governing Mordor from afar through Minas Morgul, where his Nine servants dwelt, until all was ready. Then he gave way before us, but only feigned to flee, and soon after came to the Dark Tower and openly declared himself.
The feigning part is in the fleeing...in other words, he pretended to have been routed but it was his intention to leave all along. Note that the Nazgul were dwelling in Minas Morgul at this time. not DG...
Also, interestingly, in letter #246, Tolkien states that even if Elrond/Galadriel had the One Ring, "confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated". So Jackson having Galadriel go in on her own is really stretching belief...
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Nov 26 2014, 8:20am
Post #42 of 46
(122 views)
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He certainly fled, the question is whether this was after a confrontation or not. The feigning bit is the idea that he wasn't really fleeing - he was falling back to a pre-prepared stronghold in Mordor.
If we imagine a police show. They might turn up at a suspect's house to find:
(A) the place deserted and the suspect already fled
(B) they knock at the door, see the suspect fleeing out of the back and give chase
(C) burst in the door and fight with the suspect who then flees
We don't know for certain but looking at the DG quotes in the round I tend towards C, whereas it sounded like you were suggesting it is definitely A.
On Galadriel, it is worth noting that this quote is referring to the Sauron of LOTR, who has grown in power and powerbase since he was the Necromancer. Also Galadriel is not alone or unaided in a self to self confrontation, the other members of the WC are there too.
I think you are right to allude earlier to the slight dissonance between Tolkien's choices on the subject over the years, but equally he clearly did not choose to be explicit that a confrontation did not take place in writing references to this in LOTR and beyond (and indeed, I think, repeatedly implied the converse).
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Nov 26 2014, 9:30am
Post #43 of 46
(115 views)
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C rather than the other options, but in the sense that Sauron was expecting the assault, and put up a show of resistance, whilst having already planned his escape! As for Galadriel, well, we won't know until we see the scene for ourselves, but the sense I'm getting from the trailers is that she at least enters in advance on her own, and luckily the others are not too far behind!
And yes, I do think the vagueness is part of Tolkien trying to reconcile his later thoughts that the Istari were forbidden to go up against Sauron directly.
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Nov 26 2014, 10:29am
Post #44 of 46
(113 views)
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That's definitely my own interpretation.
I think you are right that she enters the building alone, but surely the others must have arrived together and planned various routes in, rather than happening to turn up without co-ordination but within minutes of one another. Certainly by the time they face Sauron they must all be on site together.
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Girdle of Melian
Lorien
Nov 26 2014, 1:29pm
Post #45 of 46
(99 views)
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If Galadriel walks in there, without any plan, army, gadget, whatever, then that is poor writing. The only way it would fly is that if PJ and Boyens uses and expands on the appendices, unfinished tales, Silmarillion, etc, about her prowess. Who knows how potent the Phial is in her hand (in the first place what power did she even use to contain that in the glass; it's certainly not the glass that holds it there), what she learned from Melian, from the Valar when she was in Valinor.
If she is "surprised" that Sauron is there, then Radagast did not do his job properly..lol
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Nov 26 2014, 4:54pm
Post #46 of 46
(94 views)
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I don't think that is very likely
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If the WC enter within minutes of each other, the filmakers would have to go out of their way to get the audience to think this wasn't planned.
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