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Girdle of Melian
Lorien
Nov 18 2014, 5:08pm
Post #1 of 14
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What if Saruman Did Not Betray His Allies...and was not corrupted?
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Would he have accompanied Gandalf in his quest with the fellowship?
Go to Rivendell?
Go to Lorien?
Go to Rohan?
Go to the White City?
Work with ents?
I doubt he would stay in his tower coz he does not have an army there, so he would go to somewhere safer....what do you think would have been his best effort to help during the War of the Ring?
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dormouse
Half-elven
Nov 18 2014, 6:49pm
Post #2 of 14
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Well, if he had not been corrupted and there had been no betrayal....
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... he wouldn't be thinking of his own safety, would he, so the question of going somewhere safer wouldn't have arisen. His decision to stay or go would surely be based on where he could be most helpful.
But you're talking about a totally different story now, because if Saruman hadn't fallen, Gandalf wouldn't have had to face the Balrog. He would still be Grey, not White. If Saruman hadn't felled trees in Fangorn (which goodSaruman would surely not have done), would the Ents ever have become involved? Would they have been needed?
But would a large-scale mission to Mordor involving one or even two wizards have drawn too much attention to itself and ultimately failed to reach Orodruin?
My head's spinning.....
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Nov 18 2014, 8:50pm
Post #3 of 14
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yes
yes
yes
yes
and
yes
Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, Alatar, and Palando, along with a coterie of comrades would stride into Mordor and teach Sauron the meaning of grief. 
A whole nother story methinks. 
It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him.
- JRRT
A dead dragon is not a big problem.
- BG
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Darkstone
Immortal
Nov 18 2014, 10:21pm
Post #4 of 14
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The Fellowship avoids Moria.
Peaceful diplomat Gandalf the Grey survives. (Buttkicking Gandalf the White is never born.)
The Fellowship never enters Lothorien.
Galadriel never returns to the West.
No orcs capture M&P at Amon Hen.
Frodo, Sam, and Merry head into Mordor.
No incident with the palantir so Pippin gets to go along.
Aragorn, Boromir, Gimli, and Legolas head into Minas Tirith.
Gandalf and Saruman head off to guide the peoples of Middle-earth by encouragement and persuasion. (Yawn!)
No chase of the Three Hunters.
No Shadowfax.
No unrequited love for Eowyn.
Minas Tirith erupts in civil war between the Denethor/Boromir faction and the Aragorn /Faramir faction.
No Dernhelm at the Pelennor.
No Merry at the Pelennor.
The Witch King kills everybody at the Pelennor. And in Minas Tirith. And in Rohan. (No backstabbing hobbit to help Dernhelm break the spell.)
Meanwhile, back in Mordor, Pippin keeps throwing rocks into every pit, crevasse, and body of water they come across.
Eventually someon notices and the hobbits are taken prisoner.
Sauron gets the ring.
The world is covered in Darkness.
Saruman is kinda like Judas. Judas is The Great Betrayer, but without him there's no Crucifixion, no Resurrection, and no Kingdom of Heaven.
Saruman is the true sacrificial figure of The Lord of the Rings!
Ah, Tolkien, you sly old theologian you!
******************************************
"Kai provseisi, kai avpeisi."
("There and back again.")
-Heraclitus of Ephesus, c. 500 BC
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Girdle of Melian
Lorien
Nov 19 2014, 2:58pm
Post #6 of 14
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Lol..it's true..things will change...
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However, we are not really sure if other circumstances may force Gandalf still to enter Moria, or Lorien, who knows...what will happen in the future. I guess I'm curious whether or not things would have turned out for the better if Saruman had not betrayed...could they have destroyed the One Ring better and have less loss of lives all over?
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dormouse
Half-elven
Nov 19 2014, 3:12pm
Post #7 of 14
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Thing is, so much in the story hangs on Saruman's betrayal...
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Frodo and his friends leave the Shire alone because of Saruman's betrayal. That was the only reason Gandalf wasn't with them.
The Company went through Moria because Saruman's betrayal made the Gap of Rohan too dangerous to risk.
If it hadn't been for Saruman's betrayal Boromir would have lived. The Company wouldn't have been attacked, Pippin and Merry wouldn't have been taken,
Without Saruman's betrayal there would have been no Grima, no threat to Rohan. Theodred would have lived, Theoden wouldn't have come under Saruman's influence. Eomer would never have been king. The Company would probably not have gone to Rohan at all if it had been safe to go to Isengard. They certainly wouldn't have gone to Lorien.
Things might have turned out better - but I reckon it's more likely they'd have turned out a whole lot worse!
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Kristin Thompson
Rohan
Nov 20 2014, 4:11am
Post #8 of 14
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Good one, Darkstone! But perhaps ...
c. 2463 Deagol finds the Ring, Smeagol kills him and takes it, and in roughly 2470 he hides under the Misty Mountains. Also the White Council is formed.
Saruman is not corrupted. In 2851 he agrees with Gandalf that the White Council should attack Dol Guldur. They do, and Sauron is killed.
Gandalf has no reason to send Bilbo on the Quest of Erebor, since there is no Sauron to use the dragon to terrible effect. (Indeed, perhaps after the death of Sauron the Istari head back to Valinor.)
Gollum stays forever in his cave, obsessing over the Ring. The Ring never wants to leave him, since there's no Sauron to return to.
Not much of a story.
Kristin
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Nov 20 2014, 10:24am
Post #9 of 14
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Saruman stayed good, but given his nature was still a stayed at Orthanc, but alarmed at Sauron's rising power could not resist building and army of his own. Maybe breeding an army of 'good,' Orcs, or at least so he would claim. Would Gandalf think this a wise way of opposing Sauron or would he think this a bit too close to the evil side?
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Advising Elf
Rohan
Nov 20 2014, 8:44pm
Post #10 of 14
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Sounds like a P.J. and Co. script seesion.
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*ducks*
Link to Youtube video about my daughter's book: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCo-bF0u8xI
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Nov 21 2014, 6:36pm
Post #12 of 14
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'I was delayed' said Gandalf, 'and that nearly proved our ruin. And yet I am not sure: it may have been better so'
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(A quote from FOTR, Many Meetings). Hammon & Scully, in the Readers' Companion, discuss this, & then quote this:
it is part of the schema of The Lord of the Rings that what seems to be setbacks, blunders and delays, turn out to have been useful shortcuts; though I think Tolkien would have argued that, had they done otherwise, with good intention, that too might have led to the quest's end."
David Cremona, letter to Beyond Bree June 1991, p10, quoted in The Lord or the Rings, A Readers Companion by Hammond & Scull
So maybe, if Saruman had stayed true, that would somehow have worked out too....
~~~~~~
"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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squire
Half-elven
Nov 21 2014, 7:08pm
Post #13 of 14
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'Great service he could have rendered.'
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Gandalf after the confrontation at Orthanc at the end of 'The Two Towers':
"Then I gave him a last choice and a fair one: to renounce both Mordor and his private schemes, and make amends by helping us in our need. He knows our need, none better. Great service he could have rendered." (LotR III.10). I've always wondered how seriously Tolkien wrote those lines. Did he actually game out a repentant Saruman, working in conjunction with Gandalf, Theoden, Aragorn and Denethor to save the West while Frodo completed his journey? We know from the notes in HoME that Tolkien worked long and hard at crafting the intricate plot of the second half of LotR, after the company separates. But I don't think I've ever seen any indication that Saruman was a potential good guy in Tolkien's mind, in any sense or at any time. After all he was invented to be a villain and a traitor who entrapped Gandalf (earlier solutions were Gandalf trapped in the Elf Towers west of the Shire, as seen in Frodo's dream at Crickhollow, and Gandalf trapped by the evil giant Treebeard). Why muddy the waters by repurposing the character at the expense of starting all over again on the question of why Gandalf was delayed during Frodo's first set of adventures?
Or is the line a throwaway in classic Gandalf style: wise-sounding but impenetrable?
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Nov 21 2014, 7:18pm
Post #14 of 14
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Great service - at Mount Doom, take 2
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Frodo:
I have come. But I do not choose now to do what I came to do. I will not do this deed. The Ring is mine!
Saruman:
I gave you the chance of aiding me willingly, but you have elected the way of pain. [Pushes Frodo into the lava]
[to camera] You did not seriously think that a hobbit could contend with the will of Sauron, there are none that can.
~~~~~~
"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Nov 21 2014, 7:24pm)
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