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mightyecthelion
Registered User
Nov 9 2014, 11:40pm
Post #1 of 5
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Talking about Eldar height... Do you think this 2 passages of latest dates you can get contradict with each-other?
'The Quendi were in origin a tall people. The Eldar (...) they were in general the stronger and taller members of the Elvish folk at that time. In Eldarin tradition it was said that even their women were seldom less than six feet in height; their full-grown elfmen no less than six and a half feet, while some of the great kings and leaders were taller.'
'They were called “halflings”; but this refers to the normal height of men of Númenórean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Ñoldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.’
I mean this is more of a question if the first passage actually means an average since "kings and leader were taller" taller than what? the height given previously or the average not given? If the latter than we should consider "seldom less" and "no less" indicators of a minimum height rather than an average thus if that was a minimum the average would be higher and so the two passages agree with each-other since the Eldar(in the second passage) were said to be a little less than 7'(because specifically the Noldor Eldar reach that height more often).
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ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Nov 11 2014, 11:14am
Post #2 of 5
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there were similar ambiguities about the height of Elendil and Isildur in differing texts
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so don't try and find a defining answer, although other text suggests a measure of "man high" of 6'4" represents the average height of Numenoreans at a time of decline so they (at their greatest) and the Eldar were likely taller than that.
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mightyecthelion
Registered User
Nov 12 2014, 2:36am
Post #3 of 5
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So do you think they contradict each-other or you can see an ambiguity in equal measure?
I mean that in my opinion I can see almost no room for ambiguity here (in the first passage) since It's definitely talking about a minimum height that's why Tolkien mentioned "seldom less" and "no less"(see how it goes without that), that being said the average should definitely be higher and closer to 7' for the Eldar and even closer to the Noldor if not that.
Now the other text where they talk about Linear measures definitely contradict with both sentences here(how can Celeborn be 6'4" after this two passages?) but that doesn't add something to this thread since we're are just discussing about this two passages in specific.
Thanks for participate in this thread.
(This post was edited by mightyecthelion on Nov 12 2014, 2:38am)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Nov 13 2014, 4:14pm
Post #4 of 5
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my collection so far, texts written in or after LOTR
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Yes, so far it seems to be the case that JRRT himself didn't actually publish much on the matter, in detail anyway. Besides the use of tall, employed at times to describe an Elf or the Eldar, in The Lord of the Rings we have the description: 'Very tall they were, and the Lady no less tall than the Lord;...' referring to Galadriel and Celeborn.
There might be more in the author-published corpus, but jumping to some late posthumously published texts or notes: Christopher Tolkien, in Unfinished Tales, Appendix E to The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, explains: 'In my father's latest philological writings however, the meaning [of Celeborn] 'Silver Tree' was abandoned: the second element of Celeborn (as the name of a person) was derived from the ancient adjectival element form 'uprising, tall,' rather...' (...) 'That Celeborn was tall is mentioned in a note to the discussion of Numenorean Linear Measures, p. 299'
This states that the Celeborn note is a note to the discussion of Numenorean Linear Measures [NLM], where in NLM itself, CJRT refers to 'a note to the foregoing text' [NLM being that text] that adds information on Morwen, and then states: 'Another note remarks of Celeborn that he was a Linda of Valinor, and [part of Tolkien's note itself, I guess, considering the way it's presented in UT]: 'he was held by them to be tall, as his name indicated ('Silver Tall') but the Teleri were in general somewhat less in build and stature than the Noldor.'
In other words, on this page it had just said 'another note', but I take it that it's another note 'to the foregoing' text, like the one about Morwen, as opposed to a random note added to this discussion by CJRT. If so, NLM itself is associated with Disaster of the Gladden Fields (DGF), and NLM reads in part: 'The Eldar of the Elder Days were also very tall. Galadriel 'the tallest of all the women of the Eldar of whom tales tell,' was said to be man-high, but it is noted 'according to the measure of the Dunedain and the Men of old,' indicating a height of about six feet four inches.'
And in Unfinished Tales DGF is only described itself as a late narrative, in very general terms, compared to the time of the publication of The Lord of the Rings and the years following it. Hammond and Scull give DGF and NLM in an entry '1969 or later' (Chronology).
Then we have Tolkien's Of Dwarves And Men: 'They were called 'Halflings'; but this refers to the normal height of Men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Noldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.'
Hammond and Scull date this text 'October 1969 or later' which is interesting, because the next two entries in their amazing Chronology are '1 October 1969: 'Tolkien writes to Pauline Baynes. He returns the photo copy of the map, with some comments...', as, in c. 20 August 1969 Pauline Baynes had left a photocopy of the general map from the published Lord of the Rings for Tolkien to annotate. And the second entry here is:
'Late October or beginning of November 1969: Pauline Baynes and her husband Fritz Gasch visit Tolkien and Edith. They take with them the finished painting for the poster A Map of Middle-earth, along with gifts: a poinsettia, chocolates, some cakes...'
Is this the first time Tolkien sees the painting in full, meaning including the top illustrations (the Nine Walkers and Bill), and the bottom (Shelob, various bad guys) too? Possibly. But even if so, when does he set about to write his comments...
... as we also have Tolkien writing a series of descriptions after he had seen her work, and I'm guessing the comments were due more to the illustration of the Nine Walkers that went with the illustrated map, as opposed to the map itself, with vignettes. In any event Tolkien's description reads (partly edited here with respect to who the Eldar are): 'The Quendi were in origin a tall people. The Eldar (...) they were in general the stronger and taller members of the Elvish folk at that time. In Eldarin tradition it was said that even their women were seldom less than six feet in height; their full-grown elfmen no less than six and a half feet, while some of the great kings and leaders were taller.'
JRRT, late manuscript, The Lord of the Rings Reader's Companion, Hammond and scull, p. 107, entry 'a tall Elf'.
And I think this must be from Tolkien's reaction to the artwork for this poster map, as Hammond and Scull have noted online concerning this: 'We did, in fact, make extensive use of this manuscript in The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion (2005), on pp. 3-4, 107, 229, 244-5, 265, 272, 447, and 493.' Christopher Tolkien had earlier published part of it in Unfinished Tales (1980), pp. 286-7. We refer to it variously as a manuscript written c. 1969, a late manuscript, a late unpublished note, etc., with the source given only as the Tolkien Papers, Bodleian Library, Oxford.' So they date this text as circa 1969.
In his History of The Hobbit John Rateliff quotes another section having to do with Gandalf, and dates these same descriptions circa 1970, also noting that Tolkien actually cut the illustration of the Company from the map when he gave the map artwork as a gift.
Anyway, the dating is rather vague in general with respect to the notably late stuff. This is just the 1940s to 1970-ish, 'or later' type stuff. And of course when we have 'or later' it's hard to chose a definitive chronology.
_____
Also, Thingol, 'Argon' and Turgon seem be the tallest of the Children of Eru, at some point anyway. In a description seemingly associated with the updated Fall of Gondolin [early 1950s I guess), note 31 to Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin (Unfinished Tales): 'Now Turgon himself would appear, 'tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol...'
And that is only to be perhaps noted in light of a much later statement in The Shibboleth of Feanor (1968 or later): 'Arakano was the tallest of the brothers and the most impetuous, but his name was never changed to Sindarin form [Argon], for he perished in the first battle of Fingolfin's host with the Orks,...' So Arakano was to be the taller brother of Turgon I guess, yet he (Arakano/Argon) died before Tuor came to Gondolin in any case.
And Maedros is nick-named the tall
That's all I have... so far anyway. Or all I remember right now.
Or we could go back to The Book of Lost Tales and start from there! Yikes. Maybe not right now.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Nov 13 2014, 4:24pm)
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mightyecthelion
Registered User
Nov 14 2014, 12:18pm
Post #5 of 5
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That's pretty much everything we've got of later dates because if I'm not mistaken the Eldar in early writings were of lighter build and stature.
Beleg for example:
early writing - 'He was great of growth and goodly limbed,
But light of girth,...'
later writings - '' But in the dim dusk of a winter's day there appeared suddenly among them a man, as it seemed, of great bulk and girth, cloaked and hooded in white...'' - Keep in mind that he’s one of the Sindar the Noldor were in general somewhat larger.
In early writings Tuor was freaking tall(tallest guy in Gondolin) and strong in comparison to the Gnomes while later it was said that he was escorted between tall guards and only appeared taller than Ecthelion(for whom Tuor was amazed buy his lordly stance) after Ulmo made some kind of magic for him to be listened and later on Turgon was described as the second tallest of the childern of Illúvatar like you said.
Now more related to the thread I think later on Tolkien in general thought them to be strong physically but still graceful. And very tall with heights close to 7' while the Noldor being somewhat taller.
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