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Remus
Lorien
Nov 3 2014, 4:57pm
Post #1 of 17
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So Sauron would die if he took off his ring?
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This idea have struck be the last few days. In PJs movies, Isildur cuts off Saurons Ring finger and Sauron explodes/implodes almost immediatley.
So that means, once Sauron forged the Ring in Orodruin and put it on, he could not take it off? Didn't he take it off before being captured and taken to Numenor? Wouldn't he lose it if he was sucked down into the deep of the sea?
I know in Tolkiens book, Sauron fought and wrestled with Elendil and Gil-Galad and took deep/huge injuries and fell uncouncious or something and Isildur took the shattered Narsil and cut off his ring finger and took the ring for his own.
But what if we follow PJs version??
(This post was edited by Remus on Nov 3 2014, 4:57pm)
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Nov 3 2014, 5:19pm
Post #2 of 17
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Firstly, Sauron doesn't die. When defeated by Gil-galad and Elendil (or by Isildur, as in the film), he only loses his corporeal form (though, I imagine, his spirit is also temporarily weakened). Nor does he die when the Ring is destroyed in the end of LOTR. His spirit remains, but is permanently crippled, leaving him unable to ever rise again (well, at least we're told so in the book).
Now, on to your question. No, in the books the removal of the Ring does not lead to Sauron's destruction. In the films, maybe. Or perhaps only when the Ring is removed against Sauron's will.
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Remus
Lorien
Nov 3 2014, 6:05pm
Post #3 of 17
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No need to mention that...
In the Shadow of Mordor games cutscenes we see Sauron walking around too with his ring not on his finger in Mt.Doom and forcing Celebrimbor to write the text on the One Ring. A really cool touch and idea i must say. Not canon ofc.
A fight between Elendil & Gil-Galad vs. Sauron in the movies would had been really awesome.
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Nov 3 2014, 6:12pm
Post #4 of 17
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Sorry about that. 
I do believe it depends of whether or not the Ring is removed willingly (by Sauron himself or by someone else).
(This post was edited by BlackFox on Nov 3 2014, 6:12pm)
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Remus
Lorien
Nov 4 2014, 9:26am
Post #5 of 17
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that is a good idea.
But did Sauron wield the One Ring during his visit to Numenor as a prisoner?
And only Narsil could had hurt Sauron because it was a mighty sword, forged by the dwarf Telcontar? Or could a standard/ordinary sword hurt Sauron?
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Nov 4 2014, 10:28am
Post #6 of 17
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The question whether or not he had the Ring with him in Numenor doesn't seem to have a definite answer
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It was discussed briefly in Reading Room not long ago (here).
As to your second question: I don't know. Sounds plausible, though.
(This post was edited by BlackFox on Nov 4 2014, 10:30am)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Nov 4 2014, 1:26pm
Post #7 of 17
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A) Yes Sauron had the One in Numenor. That is the clear answer from JRRT himself.
A1) the fact that some do boggle at Tolkien's answer (how the One isn't lost in the Sea), doesn't really change the answer. Heck I agree that Tolkien arguably found himself in an awkward position here, but he is the author of his world nonetheless.
A2) one can arguably attack Tolkien's answer by way of 'canon', because the explicit answer appears in a letter. That said, 'canon' is a tricky road here too, since Tolkien himself never published his 'final' version of the tale of Numenor, and he himself might have addressed this question within the tale.
Or not 
I mean maybe JRRT would say: boggle if you want to, but Sauron did not escape the destruction of Numenor by ship (or something), and he had his Ring.
B) the use of die: Sauron was slain and did die. To my mind, if we are going to say that separation of spirit and body in Tolkien's world is not death then one can arguably say that Elves and Men don't really die.
Sauron's spirit, like those of the Elves (and for a time the Dead that Aragorn summons, it seems), does not leave the Circles of the World upon dying, and while the One still exists he has enough innate power to rebuild a body and return.
But I think we can say he dies.
C) Isildur and the One: in my opinion Sauron dies at the hands of Elendil and Gil-galad -- that is, he is dead or dying when Isildur appears and cuts the One from his hand. Technically he could be said to 'die' at the moment the One is taken from him, as that could be the moment his spirit abandons his body.
One description, admittedly one among others, tells of the deed. From letter 131: "Gilgalad and Elendil are slain in the act of slaying Sauron. Isildur, Elendil’s son, cuts the ring from Sauron’s hand, and his power departs, and his spirit flees into the shadows."
I realize not all agree, but to my mind Sauron was already 'slain' in that his body was beyond the point that he could be alive in the normal sense, it's just that his spirit had yet to flee his body; in other words since his spirit was bound to the World it clung to his body until the Ring was taken by Isildur. In my opinion.
I realize what folks mean when then say Sauron cannot die, but again what spirit dies in Tolkien's legendarium? Even with Men, the hope is that they continue on, if not within the World and its time.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Nov 4 2014, 1:40pm)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Nov 4 2014, 1:51pm
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That said, 'canon' is a tricky road here too, since Tolkien himself never published his 'final' version of the tale of Numenor, and he himself might have addressed this question within the tale.
Or not
I mean maybe JRRT would say: boggle if you want to, but Sauron did not escape the destruction of Numenor by ship (or something), and he had his Ring.
Well I need to add that Tolkien did publish that Sauron had perished in the Downfall, in Appendix A.
So that much he could not easily tinker with, even had he revised the longer tale (the one CJRT published in the constructed Silmarillion) in some measure.
Oops! Forgot about that for a moment 
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Nov 4 2014, 3:34pm
Post #9 of 17
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I ought to have reread the discussion, instead of just linking to it. Thanks, Elthir!
(This post was edited by BlackFox on Nov 4 2014, 3:35pm)
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Nov 4 2014, 4:32pm
Post #11 of 17
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'his physical form perished', I interpret this to mean that he could 'clothe {him}sel{f} ' in '{a} form' like unto the Children of Eru. This form would then be like a garment. 'Moreover their {The Valar's} shape..they need it not, save only as we use raiment'. Loss of a Valar's physical body may entail the loss of power that was used in forming it, but I don't think it really weakened them (cf. Gandalf's resurrection). Without it they were as ' we may be naked and suffer no loss of our being.' The last quote refers to form and identity, so it mayhap that power is lost, but I think that it might be due to a more 'fixed' connexion to Arda, such as Morgoth's when he put his power, thought, and energy into domination and empowering his servants.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Nov 4 2014, 9:14pm
Post #12 of 17
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That's another distinction I wasn't distincting... as I was focusing on Sauron.
That said I believe Sauron was wedded to his body (like Melkor) and so could be slain, and thus my comparison to Elves and Men 'dying' (nitpicky as that was, admittedly).
I think other spirits might 'incarnate' for a time (a feast or something, perhaps when in the company of Elves for example) without becoming dependent upon these forms, and these are more like raiment... I think.
I also think some of this incarnation stuff with respect to the Ainur is noted in a note to Osanwe-centa... but right now I'm admittedly going on memory, so somebody stop me if I have lost the path. It's an author's note, in a sense, and by that I mean it's not written by CJRT or the editors of Vinyar Tengwar.
In other words it's 'Tolkien's' note, but perhaps written as an internal character (a scribe or someone, possibly referring to the Elf Pengolodh. Ah my memory!).
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Nov 4 2014, 9:53pm
Post #14 of 17
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It's a bit specific to another thread I was blathering away in (cut and pasted here), but it includes the passages I was thinking of from Osanwe-centa...
'In any case is it likely or possible that even the least of the Maiar would become Orcs? Yes: (...) The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs; but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit state (even demon form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force. (...)'
JRRT, Myths Transformed, Text VIII
In Osanwe-kenta (probably dates 1959-60), Pengolodh notes that though in origin a 'self-arraying', it may tend to approach the state of incarnation: '... especially with the lesser members of that order (the Maiar).' Pengolodh also cites the opinion that '... if a spirit (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hroa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate wihout the hroa.'
The note goes on to describe the things that are 'binding', mentions Melian, and notes that Melkor alone among the Great became at last bound to a bodily form. And...
'So it was with even some of his greatest servants, as in these later days we see: they became wedded to the forms of their evil deeds, and if these bodies were taken away from them or destroyed, they were nullified, until they had rebuilt a semblance of their former habitations, with which they could continue the evil courses in which they had become fixed [Pengolodh here evidentally refers to Sauron in particular...' JRRT, Osanwe-kenta, Vinyar Tengwar 39
If I recall correctly, after more than 400 years of the Sun the battle of Huan and Wolf-sauron takes place, and no matter what the magic art of shape-shifting entails in detail (for myself, I prefer not to cut this particular ball open too much to investigate its bounce), it's said that Sauron: '... could not elude the grip of Huan without forsaking his body utterly.' Noting too that Sauron yielded to Luthien as well.
End cut and paste
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ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Nov 9 2014, 9:11am
Post #16 of 17
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in that battle you mention last
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Huan did not kill wolf Sauron, the latter yielded then upon release changed shape and fled as a bat dripping blood from it's throat, and not that I think you have done so, but many people in previous discussions have missed or misunderstood this point. It is interesting how the changes of form carry over any injuries.
(This post was edited by ElendilTheShort on Nov 9 2014, 9:14am)
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KingTurgon
Rohan
Nov 12 2014, 1:30am
Post #17 of 17
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if a Last Alliance movie is made someday? 
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