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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Nov 3 2014, 3:41am
Post #1 of 12
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Silm: Question about something in the "Aule and Yavanna" chapter [spoilery details]
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So Aule made the Dwarves and Yavanna is upset. Conversations and some dreaming(?)/seeing took place, with certain outcomes.
I'm particularly intrigued by the last but 2 paragraphs:
‘Nay,’ he said, ‘only the trees of Aulë will be tall enough. In the mountains the Eagles shall house, and hear the voices of those who call upon us. But in the forests shall walk the Shepherds of the Trees.’
Then Manwë and Yavanna parted for that time, and Yavanna returned to Aulë; and he was in his smithy, pouring molten metal into a mould. ‘Eru is bountiful,’ she said. ‘Now let thy children beware! For there shall walk a power in the forests whose wrath they will arouse at their peril.’ Is Manwe equating the Ents to the Eagles? If he is, does it mean the Ents are also Maiar? If not, then how could they, the Ents I mean, be "created" and given life, since only Eru has that power? Doesn't seem like he would grant another exception so soon just for Manwe to do so and calm Yavanna down, does he? But since the Elves woke the Ents and taught them speech, it does seem like Ents are not Maiar?
"I'll say dark and gritty, which, with the Elvenking, translates as Hot and Sexy.  " - vanima ephel
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 Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Nov 4 2014, 12:22pm
Post #3 of 12
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Yeah, i went back and read the chapter again
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Then Manwë sat silent, and the thought of Yavanna that she had put into his heart grew and unfolded; and it was beheld by Ilúvatar. Then it seemed to Manwë that the Song rose once more about him, and he heeded now many things therein that though he had heard them he had not heeded before. And at last the Vision was renewed, but it was not now remote, for he was himself within it, and yet he saw that all was upheld by the hand of Ilúvatar; and the hand entered in, and from it came forth many wonders that had until then been hidden from him in the hearts of the Ainur. Looks like it was an opportunity for Manwe to get a better look at stuff in the Music.
Thanks, BlackFox!
"I'll say dark and gritty, which, with the Elvenking, translates as Hot and Sexy. " - vanima ephel
I fancy myself an ME BFF (Book/Film Fan)
(Aaaaand a gushy Thranduil fangurl before The Hobbit movies; still a gushy Thranduil fangurl through them. )
Thranduil Appreciation
Tis true: more appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies. Threadcount: XXII
I | II | III | IV | V | VI | VII | VIII | IX | X | XI | XII | XIII | XIV | XV | XVI | XVII | XVIII | XIX | XX | XXI
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBotFA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
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Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Nov 4 2014, 4:13pm
Post #4 of 12
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That the Ents, the original Ents, were free spirits whom Manwe/Eru had sent into the trees to take up their form and protect them. Unless I am wrong, not all of those spirits in Arda were Maiar or Valar descended from the Timeless Halls (Ungoliant, Tom Bombadil, Old Man Willow, Barrow-Wights etc..) so I imagine that there might be free spirits roaming the landscape. Maybe personifications of Nature, the Great Music, Eru's will, Creativity, or something else? (Take your pick) Anyway, I see these as free spirits still loyal to Eru, if only tacitly inthat they do not follow Morgoth or have their own ideas of possessing authority. As such, I think they would b conscious of and obey Eru or his direct representative.
Hmm...Maybe this is where dragons and Balrogs came? Free spirits who followed Morgoth?
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Nov 4 2014, 4:46pm
Post #5 of 12
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So does Ents have their own Hall of Mandos?
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Where do their spirits go when they die? This gets complicated.
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Nov 4 2014, 5:00pm
Post #6 of 12
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You are forgetting the most important question here!!
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Do they have wings?
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Nov 4 2014, 5:12pm
Post #7 of 12
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I cannot tell if that was tongue-in-cheek or not, so I will give an answer either way.
I assume they have the same fate as the Ainu spirits. Not Mannish, Dwarvish, Ainu, or Elvish, and probably not figuring as MC's anywhere in the Cosmogony, so I'll list them under the category: Other. Who knows What the Professor might have said if he had anticipated this question?
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Nov 4 2014, 5:45pm
Post #8 of 12
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Or do their spirits have wings?
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But actually, it was a serious question. They probably are under the Other category. And when I think about other oddities such as Ungoliant, who apparently died by eating herself, where did her spirit go? Or Balrog spirits? And if Huan could speak, was he more than a regular dog (I'm assuming dogs in Arda don't have eternal spirits that go to Mandos, etc), and if so, where did his spirit go? I'm not sure there are answers for that in what Tolkien wrote.
When Saruman is killed in the Shire, his spirit is pointedly not allowed to go West, so it seems to go wherever Sauron's does and becomes a little "ghost," I guess. Maybe something to send shivers down your back if it crosses the room, but otherwise harmless. I'm not sure Tolkien really wanted all unhoused spirits to hang around Arda forever as ghosts, however, so it seems a detail he never worked out. He seems more focused on the major 2-legged races (Elves, Men, Dwarves) when it comes to the afterlife. For the rest of the spirits, it's like Shire maps showing areas outside the Shire: blank.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Nov 4 2014, 6:33pm
Post #9 of 12
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In the sacred grove of Carya, the Lady of the Nut-Tree.
Whose priestesses danced around dressed as trees.
From which we get the word "caryatid".
Which are female figures used as columns.
To support halls.
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I met a Balrog on the stair.
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Nov 6 2014, 5:05pm
Post #11 of 12
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To answer this question, you have to understand how this chapter came into being. It is, as I say in Arda Reconstructed, "completely manufactured by Christopher, though using his father's own writings. There had never been an equivalent chapter in the Quenta Silmarillion, and it is made up almost entirely of parts of texts that are completely separate from the Quenta or the Annals. Moreover, the two separate parts of the chapter--one concerning the Dwarves and the other concerning the Ents--are largely unrelated to each other.
The portion regarding the Dwarves is taken from a text called "Of Aule and the Dwarves" and alternatively "Amended Legend of Origin of the Dwarves," which is related to what was Chapter 13 of the later Quenta, "Concerning the Dwarves." Christopher decided to include this material much earlier than that, and created this new second chapter of the Quenta. He also decided to tack on to this a completely unrelated text called "Anaxartamel" or "Of the Ents and the Eagles." There is no indication that Tolkien ever intended this text to be part of the Quenta Silmarillion, so it is unclear why Christopher included it. Again quoting from Arda Reconstructed, 'In his commentary on this text, he [Christopher] cites a 1963 letter of his father's in which he states that "some" (including Galadriel) held the opinion that Ents were the result of Yavanna beseeching Eru (through Manwe) to "give life to living things not stone" in response to His mercy to Aule.'
In any event, no, I don't think he is equating the Ents with the Eagles of Manwe in this text (which can be read in full the War of the Rings). Clearly they are being created after the creation of Arda, whereas the Ainur (which included the Maia) existed before Arda was created.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
(This post was edited by Voronwë_the_Faithful on Nov 6 2014, 5:06pm)
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