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Cirashala
Valinor
Oct 17 2014, 6:05pm
Post #1 of 24
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Erebor and Dwarf society
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So this question has been plaguing my mind for several days, and I was curious. Don't know if this belongs on TH board or RR, so if it needs to be moved then mods feel free to do what you need to do 
I keep wondering, especially as the camera moves through Erebor (both in the prologue and during the dwarf/Smaug chase scene at the end of DOS), what life would have been like in the Mountain after Erebor is reclaimed.
Obviously, it REALLY needs to be cleaned up- there's dust, cobwebs, likely some dragon, shall we say, signs, probably dead rats and their signs, etc- eww. The dead bodies of those who didn't survive Smaug would also need a proper burial, as would all who did not survive the BO5A (obviously at this point in my mind, the "big 3" would already be buried prior to anyone else  ).
He who becomes king (I won't do names so non-readers aren't spoiled, though it's unlikely that they aren't already if they're on these boards), would presumably have a coronation of sorts, even if it's small. But my mind cannot decide if that would be a quickie affair to get him crowned right away, or one that will be a "already practicing but not crowned" status until springtime, when it's expected the first of the refugees of Durin's Folk will finally arrive at the Mountain and a proper, grandiose coronation would take place.
I also imagine that the first places to be cleaned up would be the main hall (where the gate is- also repairing the gate), some living quarters for the survivors of the battle, and perhaps a community kitchen/dining area (until all the living quarters/homes are habitable and fully functional). Also the Throne room, though part of me doubts that much would need to be done there due to the simple lack of floors 
And there's the matter of the gold being accounted for, sorted, separated into all the expenses of rebuilding/treaties (like Dale's portion), then the remaining carefully divided up amongst the company members as profits. That ALONE would likely be enough work for months! Especially since I can image few people, probably Gloin, would be trusted with such a hoard!
So that's about as far as I got in the "rebuilding" process in my mind.
My question is- after Erebor is cleaned up, King is crowned, gold has been redistributed- what then? We know that Erebor has mines and a giant forge, but what else?
Are there smaller "small business" personal forges in addition to the large royal/industrial ones? Is there some sort of marketplace set up (with vendors and stalls)? Do dwarves have a textile industry (weaving, making clothing, etc)? We know they don't grow food, but are there dwarf grocers who sell it within the mountain after purchasing it from Dale farmers?
What is dwarf economy like? Do they keep their own animals within the mountain, or do they keep them herded outside as part of the Dale agreement and walk to Dale to obtain mounts? What would their tax system have been like?
Obviously for a society to function well, there needs to be a variety of trades and merchants and such- not just miners and craftsmen (though I imagine a good majority of dwarves did these sorts of jobs). And even among the craftsmen, there had to be some variety- maybe one did fine jewelry, one did leatherwork and buckles and such, and one did blacksmithing (animal related, functional), and some forged swords and weaponry as a blacksmith.
Then you would have the army- trainers, commanders, generals, troops- we already have a vast variety of weaponry used. What sorts of contingents would there be? Who would be in the King's Guard? Is there some sort of "Dwarf CIA" set up to handle sensitive threats? Does the king have advisors (likely)? Who would they be?
As I said, this idea of "what would a functioning dwarf society's day to day life look like?" has been plaguing my mind for several days now. We see glimpses of Erebor's splendor, and we see the "ghost town" Erebor and Moria, but we never truly see the inner workings (the worker bees, if you will) within the culture- unless you count the brief glimpse of miners, jewelers, and goldsmiths in the AUJ prologue.
I for one was glad to see "worker bees" in Laketown, The Shire, Rohan, and to a lesser extent, Rivendell and Lothlorien and Gondor. You get an idea, even vague, of how their societies would have functioned in the day-to-day aspect of things. But we don't get much of that with the dwarves.
So, how do you envision a functioning dwarf society? What sorts of jobs/trades/goods/economy would one have? If you close your eyes and imagine yourself in the Mountain "common" (aka non-royal) places, what would you see?
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Oct 17 2014, 7:26pm
Post #2 of 24
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Dwarves have mines and make things.
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There are glimpses of Dwarven society in the Sil, and to a lesser extent in LotR.
They have run mines in Moria and other places, yielding gold, silver, and mithril. They also manage quarries. It's fair to assume they sell these minerals as would any mining society. They also excel in building things (roads, buildings, etc.) as evidenced by Gimli's critical remarks in Minas Tirith.
They are skilled metal-workers, and produce weaponry (fine swords, axes) as well as very fine jewelry. Most notably, they produced the Nauglamir:
After Húrin brought the treasures of Nargothrond to Doriath, Thingol summoned Dwarves of Belegost to Menegroth and invited them to work the treasure into jewellry. The finest of these pieces was the Nauglamir.
The Nauglamír was the second-greatest treasure of Doriath, prized above all but Beren and Lúthien's Silmaril. After the smiths of Belegost finished their work on the Nauglamír, Thingol requested that the Dwarves of Nogrod set the Silmaril in it. The Nauglamír, now bearing the Silmaril was held to be the fairest object in Arda.
The Dwarves of a restored Erebor would presumably continue the activities of their predecessors.
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Oct 17 2014, 7:27pm)
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Oct 17 2014, 8:05pm
Post #3 of 24
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Good question! And then there's Gloin
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The movie dwarves have trades of sorts - Fili & Kili were apparently escourts, and we know Thorin did some blacksmithing. I'm pretty sure that Bofur was a farmer, and Bifur was a toymaker, Balin some kind of administrator, Dwalin the career soldier type (I can see him training Fili & Kili, LOL!), and Oin was some kind of physician/apothecary. And then there's Gloin, who was wealthy enough to bankroll the expedition. Maybe he was one of the merchants Fili & Kili were escourting? That leaves Bombur and the other brothers, one of which is allegedly a thief. I can assume Bombur was a cook before leaving for Erebor, although he may also have done some farming with his brother. I don't know how one would farm inside a mountain, but there could certainly be some terraced gardening on a mountainside - just speculation, of course.
I am also assuming that Dwarf society would be somewhat militarized, what with the higher portion of men to women. Dwarves seem to be serious workers, so I imagine the women would also be into crafts, perhaps weaving & dying textiles, and possibly some jewelry or leatherwork as well. When you consider that the Dwarf Cavalry arrives on "battle rams," that also lends itself to wool-gathering and spinning, along with animal husbandry. I don't think horses or cows would do as well on a mountainside, but some dwarves could be shepherds of sorts, taking the rams outside for grazing and then housing them at night. That's my guess, based on the behind-the-scene extras from AUJ.
Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Oct 17 2014, 8:36pm
Post #5 of 24
(762 views)
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A man, err... a dwarf must earn a living somehow. 
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Oct 17 2014, 8:40pm
Post #6 of 24
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WHOA.... "E OF Pennsylvania"! *snert* Back @ CHa..! //
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www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Cillendor
Lorien
Oct 17 2014, 8:50pm
Post #7 of 24
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Well that escalated rather quickly.
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Fili & Kili were apparently escourts Oh, my! This explains sooo much, really. ;) 
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Oct 17 2014, 9:34pm
Post #8 of 24
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Yeah, I guess I worded that poorly - then again, they are two of the "hot dwarves," aren't they? Totally different industry than what I was picturing, but whatever works!
Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!
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Darkstone
Immortal
Oct 17 2014, 9:44pm
Post #9 of 24
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I see a potential prequel here.
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"Eriadorian Gigolos"
******************************************
"Hola! Gorbag! What are you doing up here? Had enough of war already?"
"Orders, you lubber. And what are you doing, Shagrat? Tired of lurking up there? Thinking of coming down to fight?"
"Orders to you. I'm in command of this pass. So speak civil. What's your report?"
"Everything's really great in Cirith Ungol,
All the way from here to down below.
We haven’t seen old Shelob though she’s seven ranga tall,
About as high as a spider oughta grow!
"There’s one thing that we found in Cirith Ungol,
We found it just a little while ago.
There’s a slime trail going all the way to Shelob’s dark abode.
We followed it and found a giant midget elf-lord in the road,
We fought him and prevailed and boy we really knocked him cold!
He’s out about as far as he can go!
He’s out about as far as he can go!"
-Rodgers and Hammerstein, The Lord of the Rings
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Oct 17 2014, 9:51pm
Post #10 of 24
(706 views)
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"Fili and Kili - at your SERVICE!!!"
Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!
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Darkstone
Immortal
Oct 17 2014, 9:56pm
Post #11 of 24
(703 views)
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One starts rubbing Mary Sue's temples, the other starts rubbing Mary Sue's feet, and they eventually meet in the middle.
Trying hard not to picture a Marty Stu fanfic....
******************************************
"Hola! Gorbag! What are you doing up here? Had enough of war already?"
"Orders, you lubber. And what are you doing, Shagrat? Tired of lurking up there? Thinking of coming down to fight?"
"Orders to you. I'm in command of this pass. So speak civil. What's your report?"
"Everything's really great in Cirith Ungol,
All the way from here to down below.
We haven’t seen old Shelob though she’s seven ranga tall,
About as high as a spider oughta grow!
"There’s one thing that we found in Cirith Ungol,
We found it just a little while ago.
There’s a slime trail going all the way to Shelob’s dark abode.
We followed it and found a giant midget elf-lord in the road,
We fought him and prevailed and boy we really knocked him cold!
He’s out about as far as he can go!
He’s out about as far as he can go!"
-Rodgers and Hammerstein, The Lord of the Rings
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Retro315
Rivendell
Oct 17 2014, 11:11pm
Post #12 of 24
(687 views)
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This is a part that interests me. From the books its pretty clear that the Dwarves have nearly a month where they occupy the mountain. And there's just 13 of them. Where would they have lived?
Some of the concept art and long shots of the mountain interior from the films have spurred my interest, as it looks like there are multi-tiered levels and "Manors" within the cavernous Erebor that are very vertical in their construction. Erebor is much more specifically vertical than Moria, it seems (though Moria has plenty of vertical elements). Which jives well with it being a "Lonely Mountain".
The vaults and Smaug's Lair must be pretty low in the holds, but the books make it pretty clear that the Company live in the upper area, near the gates. So can we assume that specifically the Fountain and throne room are part of a specific "Longbeard Mansion" within Erebor in a central location? I think so. They're probably living in the Durin Mansion - a specific residence that's probably quite large, but just a fraction of the actual "clean-up work" that needs doing. To Bilbo, since dwarves are hardy workers, it must seem they're doing a huge and impressive feat of clean-up, reconstruction, going down into the vaults to collect stuff, wall-building and smithing, but to the dwarves it's probably like "oh man, we can't do much with only 13 guys, well, we'll do what we can."
I sort of figure that there aren't many poor dwarves in Erebor - just a cluster of mansions, household staffs, soldiers, and then the lower mines where the more grueling manual labor occurs - but that even lordly dwarves take a part in.
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Scorchster
Rivendell
Oct 18 2014, 1:17am
Post #13 of 24
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Laughed out loud at this! Good one!
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Cirashala
Valinor
Oct 18 2014, 1:58am
Post #14 of 24
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where did you see that Bofur was a farmer?
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Because dwarves don't farm, according to Tolkien (though PJ&co may have changed this for the movie). They get their food through trade- and prior to Erebor's fall, that trade came from Dale.
I had forgotten about the toy market- good catch!
As for terraced gardening (assuming the dwarves did do so)- I live in a mountainous region, and it can be pretty difficult to farm at such a northerly climate and at such a high elevation (Dale perhaps, as it's in the valley, but not on the mountainside). The erosion from any rain would cause the soil to drain, leaving the roots of the plants more exposed. The cold- unless dwarves have figured out raised beds and heated greenhouses of sorts, most plants would not be hardy enough to withstand it, especially as seedlings.
And I'm pretty confident that neither greenhouses nor raised beds were all that common in that time period, because raised beds weren't even really done much well into the 19th century (according to a PBS special "Frontier House" when a historical evaluator commented on one of the families building a raised garden bed- smart considering the elevation but not likely to happen in 1883).
I don't know where the frost layer is on the Lonely Mountain (or possibly a permafrost layer, depending on elevation), but if it's too high the vegetables wouldn't be able to be sown, especially the "root" veggies- potatoes, carrots, turnips, beets, onions and so forth.
Where I live, at around 2,500 feet elevation (in a valley surrounded by mountains- the Bitterroot range subsection of the Rocky Mountains, to be exact) we have a fairly short growing season- late April through mid October. And many plants, such as bell peppers for example, need to be started ten weeks before last frost here due to slower growth. Most need to be started anywhere from 2-4 weeks before last frost. We have occasionally had snow (that didn't stick) into the first week of June (at least, it snowed a couple days before my June 7th wedding in 2008) though that's not horribly common. But it can happen.
I can see the valleys in that area able to have farms, though they may not be able (or have more difficulty) growing some things due to cooler climate (I cannot grow cantaloupes here very easily because of the cold- not if they're sown directly into the ground- I'd need a heated greenhouse until about June or so in order to keep the seedlings from freezing). Watermelons are possible, but also need to be started in heated areas.
If the Lonely Mountain were in a more southerly region in ME, then I can certainly see some sort of steppe gardening/production. Plus, there would have to be some sort of accommodation for erosion control/preventing runoff from drowning the plants/exposing the roots. But if the dwarves did farm, which I kind of doubt, I can see them doing so in the plains adjacent to the foot of the mountain, rather than on the mountain itself.
That does beg another question- where is the border for the King Under the Mountain's realm? Is it JUST the Mountain, or some areas around it as well?
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Cirashala
Valinor
Oct 18 2014, 2:04am
Post #15 of 24
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but if they were "escorts to merchants trading from Ered Luin" and Gloin (their cousin) is a merchant, then....well, let's not go there
I did snort at your comment though! But I don't think that's the kind of "escorts" they were talking about lol!
Hmm....one would wonder why on earth they needed the gold in the mountain though, as such an escort service involving THOSE two would no doubt be highly lucrative (especially if TORnsibs lived in ME at the time   ).
I was SO hoping I'd finally get to use that last emoticon!
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Oct 18 2014, 3:05am
Post #16 of 24
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Where did I see that Bofur was a farmer?
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Pretty sure I saw that in the extra discs that came with AUJ EE - but now I have an excuse to double-check my info!
I brought up terraced gardening because the locals do that in Israel and some in Italy, near the mountain regions. I personally suck at gardening, but I've read about terraced gardening. I live in Oklahoma though, so no need. The Lonely Mountain does have a good water supply, so I'm sure there's good farming nearby, although you're probably right about most of their food coming from Dale.
Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!
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Cirashala
Valinor
Oct 18 2014, 3:27am
Post #17 of 24
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But both of those are in a warm climate. The Lonely Mountain is not
It is really interesting to see how various regions around the world have dealt with farming in unusual terrain for sure
Now I'm going to have to look it up! But yeah- think Erebor is still too cold for that 
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Cirashala
Valinor
Oct 18 2014, 8:00am
Post #19 of 24
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I know taters means potatoes, but that's as far as I've got- you've lost me 
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Oct 18 2014, 11:41am
Post #21 of 24
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in reply to: "That does beg another question- where is the border for the King Under the Mountain's realm? Is it JUST the Mountain, or some areas around it as well? "
________________________
That's a really interesting question and I'm curious about that, too. I can't recall anything from the books that talks about dwarf kingdoms extending outside of their underground mountain cities. Perhaps it's more a matter of military "influence" in the surrounding lands? A sort of "don't mess with us when we're traveling and trading or we'll come out in force and squash you" attitude? Dale and Esgaroth were very close to Erebor, but were apparently completely separate politically. My impression is that the dwarves just weren't interested in trying to control large areas of the "outside" as long as they could trade and work in peace.
__________________
If this is to end in barrels, then we will all shampoo together.
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FoundEntwife
Rivendell
Oct 18 2014, 9:41pm
Post #22 of 24
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I was thinking about it and it came to me that perhaps some dwarves, especially those who didn't come from wealthy families might have fished in order to supplement their diet. after all plenty of mountains have underground streams, rivers and lakes and some of these might have fish and other water creatures.
Just a wild theory though. I'd have to re-read the Silmarillion to get more info.
This tale grew in the telling. . .
http://pencilword.blogspot.com
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Cirashala
Valinor
Oct 19 2014, 2:14am
Post #23 of 24
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that sounds like a good possibility, especially with the River Running :)
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I would think that concern about mining waste products could happen, but then again they have to get their water somehow too
And it's always possible, if not downright likely, that they could have traded with Laketown for fish (I think it was rebuilt after Smaug's attack, but need to check for sure ).
Good catch!
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