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Eruvandi
Tol Eressea
Oct 14 2014, 7:13pm
Post #1 of 8
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Which was written first, the long version of CoH or the short version?
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I read the full book version of The Children of Hurin before I read the Silmarillion so, when I got to the chapter "Of Turin Turambar" in the Silm, I was surprised at how much shorter it really was. Ultimately, I didn't like this short, chapter version of CoH as much as the long, book version because, IMO a lot of important details got left out.
For example, in the book, we're given more details about the growing conflict between Turin and after Saeros antagonized Turin and then physically attacked him the next morning, we understand why Turin reacts the way he does. We also understand that Saeros' death is an accident, albeit an avoidable one. However, in the Silm chapter, all we hear is that Saeros "waylaid" Turin and the next thing we know, Turin has chased him to his death. IMO, it makes it look like he killed him on purpose.
Other differences I noticed in the chapter as opposed to the full book: We barely hear anything about Turin's childhood in Dor-lomin, there's much less about his early years in Doriath or the early days of his friendship with Beleg, there's no mention of Nellas or the trial where Turin is pardoned of wrongdoing, none of Turin's outlaws are named although Androg is vaguely alluded to once, no mention of the orcs tying Beleg up and leaving him alive specifically because Mim the dwarf asked them to, and finally, the chapter says that Beleg thrust a sword at Mim and scared him away, while the book says that Androg actually saved Beleg's life by being the one to scare Mim away. There are many other differences too, but I don't have time to list them all.
Anyway, all of these differences have made me wonder, which version of CoH did Tolkien write first? The short, chapter-length version in the Silm, or the full book-length version? Also, what do you think about the differences between book and chapter that I've listed here or any other differences you may have noticed during your own readings? Finally, do you like the long or the short version better?
"Home is behind the world ahead
And there are many paths to tread
Through shadow to the edge of night
Until the stars are all alight.
Mist and shadow
Cloud and shade
All shall fade
All shall fade"
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Ardamírë
Valinor
Oct 14 2014, 7:25pm
Post #2 of 8
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What I love about the short version
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is that it's actually the longest tale in The Silmarillion. But as you say, it's so short in relation to the long version. It just hints at the depth of the other tales, such as Beren & Luthien or the Ruin of Doriath.
I don't know the textual history well enough to answer your question, but I did want to add my own two cents.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Oct 14 2014, 7:30pm
Post #3 of 8
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I read the Sil before COH, so that colors my impression.
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While I appreciate the greater detail in COH, I never warm up to Turin and don't revel in the tale like I do others, so for that reason, I prefer the shorter version in the Sil.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Oct 14 2014, 10:01pm
Post #4 of 8
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The Book of Lost Tales version...
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... is technically a long prose version I would say. Then you have the long poetic versions. Then along comes the 'Sketch' and Qenta Noldorinwa of 1930 (short versions). And some more work in the 1930s on QS and the Annals...
... Tolkien took up the long prose version in the 1950s again (and the story in the Grey Annals, short version), at different times, and finished enough of it (in CJRT's opinion) for a constructed version by Christopher Tolkien. The Wanderings of Hurin is also something! But I won't go into that now.
I think that's generally correct... if very reduced and missing parts!
(This post was edited by Elthir on Oct 14 2014, 10:16pm)
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Oct 15 2014, 12:57am
Post #5 of 8
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This is perhaps the most complicated part of the legendarium
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As I say in my discussion of the Túrin chapter in the published Silmarillion in Arda Reconstructed:
The reason this chapter is probably the most difficult to attempt to trace is because the material from which it is derived is the one area
that Christopher indicates he did not completely present in The History of Middle-earth. He stated in the foreword to The War of the Jewels
that the history of his father’s work on “The Silmarillion” was largely completed with the publication of that book, and then clarified that
it was incomplete only in the sense that he did not enter “further into the complexities of the tale of Túrin in those parts that [his] father
left in confusion and uncertainty, as explained in Unfinished Tales, 6” (WotJ, x).
The quote from Unfinished Tales that he is referring to is the following:
My father was still evolving this part when he ceased to work on it; and the shorter version for The Silmarillion was to wait on the final developmentof the Narn. In preparing the text of The Silmarillion for publication I derived, by necessity, much of this section of the tale of Túrin from these very materials, which are of quite extraordinary complexity in their variety and interrelations. (UT, 6.)
In his discussion on the “later Quenta,” Christopher states that in December 1937 his father abandoned the writing of the continuous
Quenta Silmarillion at the beginning of the story of Túrin (which was then chapter 17). Christopher further points out that his father made
no changes to this chapter in the last typescript of the “later Quenta.” He adds that his father did eventually return to that text, but that the
many additions and corrections that he made, particularly in the latter half of the chapter, are “best regarded as an aspect of the vast,
unfinished work on the ‘Saga of Túrin’ that engaged him during the 1950s, from which no brief retelling suitable in scale to the Quenta
Silmarillion ever emerged” (WotJ, 244).
The Grey Annals does continue to the end of Túrin’s story (at which point it too ends), but much of the first part of this chapter is taken
from the different sources described above. Those sources also were used to generate the Narn account published in Unfinished Tales and,
of course, the newly released The Children of Húrin.
So to specifically answer Eruvandi's question in the original post, the "long version" (e.g. the published CoH) and the "short version" (e.g., the chapter in the published Silmarillion), are both edited compilations taken from the same complicated sources.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Oct 15 2014, 12:30pm
Post #6 of 8
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... JRRT's writings rather than the constructed versions.
So the information, for example, that: 'My father was still evolving this part when he ceased to work on it; and the shorter version for The Silmarillion was to wait on the final development of the Narn' refers to later revisions (not that you said otherwise), considering the short prose version of QN in 1930 for instance.
But your answer points out the problem with my answer (even if correct enough in general): that these versions by Tolkien were not only early, evolving or unfinished, but they are not the versions found in the constructed Silmarillion or the constructed Children of Hurin...
... if one is comparing those two versions specifically.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Oct 15 2014, 12:43pm)
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Cillendor
Lorien
Oct 15 2014, 3:55pm
Post #7 of 8
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What is The Wanderings of Húrin?
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Is it the extra material from Unfinished Tales telling how Húrin basically caused the downfall of Doriath and Gondolin? Or is it a completely different story from that?
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Eruvandi
Tol Eressea
Oct 16 2014, 9:41pm
Post #8 of 8
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Very interesting stuff!
"Home is behind the world ahead
And there are many paths to tread
Through shadow to the edge of night
Until the stars are all alight.
Mist and shadow
Cloud and shade
All shall fade
All shall fade"
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