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dreamflower
Lorien
Oct 3 2014, 10:49pm
Post #26 of 47
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It was Elves Sauron both feared and hated the most, and Elves were the original intended recipients of the One.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Oct 4 2014, 8:02pm
Post #27 of 47
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Or.. could immortality be taken by physical force?
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Incomparable artwork by BG
"Excuse me, excuse me. What does God need with a Starship? James T. Kirk --S.T. V
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PhantomS
Rohan
Oct 5 2014, 4:58pm
Post #28 of 47
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Sauron orignally intended for the Seven to work like the Nine, namely to make the bearers wraiths under his command. However, Dwarves were meant to resist domination of the mind (and even that of Sauron's master Morgoth), so the rings only made the users greedy and rich, but not changed in mind at all. Dragons melted four of them, but Sauron still managed to get the other three out of anger that they didn't work. The rings did inspire lust for old glories and riches, which is what drove Thror to go to Moria (and lose his head) and then his son Thrain to try the same thing with Erebor (and get captured by Sauron, until Gandalf finds him). Thorin was thought to have a similar kind of madness but Gandalf reminds the Council of Elrond that Thrain did not leave him the ring, which Sauron forcibly took from Thorin's father. As he was seemingly tortured to death (something a hardy Dwarf wouldn't take easily) it must have taken Sauron a lot of effort and time to get that ring off his hand. Only the Nine actually worked the way Sauron wanted them to, which was to bind the users to his will. The Three were not made by Sauron, but he could control their users if he had the One Ring (the one to rule them all), which is why Gilgalad, Galadriel and Cirdan did not use them during the Last Alliance. after Sauron was defeated and the One lost, the Three ringbearers set about using their rings to preserve their lands from the increasingly mortal and short-lived world. When the One was totally destroyed, the Three lost their powers (as they were bonded by the Ring). Sauron didn't tell anyone about the One Ring- the Elves realized the moment he put it on and took off the Three, while the Seven and Nine worked as stated above.
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Maciliel
Valinor
Oct 5 2014, 5:01pm
Post #29 of 47
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letter 131 / the hiding of the three and their use / non-use
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"The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility. But secretly in the subterranean Fire, in his own Black Land, Sauron made One Ring, the Ruling Ring that contained the powers of all the others, and controlled them, so that its wearer could see the thoughts of all those that used the lesser rings, could govern all that they did, and in the end could utterly enslave them. He reckoned, however, without the wisdom and subtle perceptions of the Elves. The moment he assumed the One, they were aware of it, and of his secret purpose, and were afraid. They hid the Three Rings, so that not even Sauron ever discovered where they were and they remained unsullied. The others they tried to destroy." so... a paradox to me... the holders of the three become aware of sauron's intent when sauron dons his master ring. they.... 1. hid the rings (confirmed) 2. took them off (i seem to recall this stated) a. how did the elves hide the three? occlude them by some other elvish power? like the spells used by wizards to hide grimmauld place, hogwarts, the world quidditch cup arena? physically hide? b. would sauron be able to discern their location? by triangulation? even if they weren't emitting a direct signal, couldn't he possibly pinpoint their location by looking for places in middle-earth that were relatively unstained and unchanged (which how the elves, particularly galadriel, used them). c. if sauron could use his one ring to read the thoughts of those who used the lesser rings (note: per letter 131, not "wore," but "used") could he not read, say, elrond's mind to determine that he had vilya in rivendell? was rivendell founded while sauron had the one ring? d. how could galadriel use nenya? wouldn't +using+ nenya to preserve lorien unveil her mind to sauron? was lothlorien founded while galadriel had the one ring? e. remind me agaiin how the one ring escaped the destruction of numenor cheers -- .
aka. fili orc-enshield +++++++++++++++++++ the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield." this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
(This post was edited by Maciliel on Oct 5 2014, 5:06pm)
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Morgothic
Registered User
Oct 5 2014, 5:22pm
Post #30 of 47
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I've been doing some thinking and perhaps some clue to his purpose, as well as the great suggestions made here, can be found in the ring verse itself. After first ruling with the ring he could then use it to find the others and after bringing them together he could bind them, or their power, into the ruling ring. This would explain his efforts to get back even the nine rings, that had served their purposes (also perhaps explaining why he didn't redistribute them to others? Were their powers spent? Or just indelibly linked to the wraiths?), allowing him to thus strengthen his one ring without getting weighed down by the 13 or so rings he would be wearing. This is all speculation though, I might not be quite right on every point.
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Maciliel
Valinor
Oct 5 2014, 6:17pm
Post #31 of 47
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perhaps it was easier to control the nine, when he did not have the one, by having the nine in hand. the ultimate plan: one ring of the nine on each finger. plus the one ring. he could put the dwarven rings on his toes. cheers -- .
aka. fili orc-enshield +++++++++++++++++++ the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield." this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Oct 5 2014, 6:19pm
Post #32 of 47
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While Sauron possessed the One, the Elves did not use their Rings. This may have led to some deterioration in the domains of Elrond and Galadriel, or even the necessity to practice physical maintenance! But after the War of the Last Alliance, when the One was taken and then lost, it was safe to use the Three again for 3,000+ years.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Oct 5 2014, 8:12pm
Post #33 of 47
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a. how did the elves hide the three? occlude them by some other elvish power? like the spells used by wizards to hide grimmauld place, hogwarts, the world quidditch cup arena? physically hide? The answer seems to me to be physically hide (send to Gil-galad in Lindon*), and do not use them. *Or out of Eregion. In Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn Galadriel is already in Lorien (having been ousted from Eregion earlier) when Celebrimbor comes to her for advice -- get the Three out of Eregion and don't use them is the plan, after they failed to destroy these rings. b. would sauron be able to discern their location? by triangulation? even if they weren't emitting a direct signal, couldn't he possibly pinpoint their location by looking for places in middle-earth that were relatively unstained and unchanged (which how the elves, particularly galadriel, used them). I guess not, if they were not used. And they would not be used again until after Sauron was slain and the One taken from him. d. how could galadriel use nenya? wouldn't +using+ nenya to preserve lorien unveil her mind to sauron? was lothlorien founded while galadriel had the one ring? Yes and as Elizabeth also noted, once the Elves discerned Sauron's plan Galadriel could not use Nenya until the Third Age. Also she did not come to rule Lorien until well after the Third Age started, according to the latest version of things (after Amroth was lost). e. remind me agaiin how the one ring escaped the destruction of numenor Tolkien explained in a letter: 'Though reduced to a 'spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of domination minds now largely depended.' Although some probably do boggle at that
(This post was edited by Elthir on Oct 5 2014, 8:21pm)
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Maciliel
Valinor
Oct 5 2014, 9:00pm
Post #34 of 47
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aka. fili orc-enshield +++++++++++++++++++ the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield." this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
Oct 6 2014, 1:13pm
Post #36 of 47
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Of course, that would help him triangulate the other three, but I would imagine that Sauron being a mighty Maiar could discern who had the Three without help of GPS! One would imagine that Sauron could at least divine the likely suspects through the process of elimination. The Three would reside with the most powerful Elves remaining in Middle Earth and there weren't too many left in the Third Age. Cirdan, Galadriel and Elrond were the obvious choices, even if they hid the rings. And I would wager Sauron had an inkling that those three possessed the rings at one time or another (Gil-Galad and Celebrimbor were the other two suspects and were long gone by the Third Age). Sauron might not have guessed that Gandalf would come into possession of one of the rings. This was a wise decision by Cirdan to obfuscate the location of at least one of them. But if I had to run down a list of ring-bearers in Middle Earth, Cirdan, Galadriel and Elrond would be the primary suspects in the Third Age. Gandalf was indeed a wildcard.
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Oct 7 2014, 12:33am
Post #37 of 47
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That the Valar's fear was for a few possible reasons: 1. They did not want to hurt the Numenorians. They had gifted them the Isalnd and had feelings of sympathy for them. On top of that, they were of the race to dominate the world, Men, so any interference might mess up Eru's cosmic plan for their ascendancy. 2. Death was not totally absent from Aman. The Two Trees died, Miriel died, Finwe died. I think that the fear of the Valar might be for war in Aman and the death of those faithful to them. I don't think it was fear for themselves, but for others, and also the iffy problem of the Guardians of M-E harming it. Just some thoughts......
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Oct 7 2014, 12:35am
Post #38 of 47
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Did Sauron take the Ring to Numenor?
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I can't seem to find an explicit reference to him leaving it in Mordor, but I could understand that he would not want to leave it with anyone-- even his most trusted servants. I always thought he must have left it. Am I in error? Help is very much appreciated!!
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Oct 7 2014, 1:24am
Post #39 of 47
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If Numenor really had a huge army, and all of Valinor was mobilized, one would think the Elves there would go to war too and be killed. You can't kill an Ainu, but you can kill Elves, so maybe the Valar wanted to avoid that. And maybe even if they were fighting the main host at one point, they couldn't be sure that a smaller force would be attacking the lightly-armed Teleri and butchering them. But I go back to thinking: why not just let Osse go wild and sink all their ships? He does that anyway. Let him loose this time.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Oct 7 2014, 11:52am
Post #40 of 47
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Tolkien seemed to think Sauron would not leave the One behind, and explicitly says so in a letter at least... that's why he says one need not boggle at his explanation... although he needed one to get the One back to Middle-earth. 'Sauron's personal 'surrender' was voluntary and cunning: he got free transport to Numenor! He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Numenoreans." And "Though reduced to 'a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying of the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds largely depended.' JRR Tolkien, letter 211 There's a line in, I think, Of The Rings Of Power... '... yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his home. There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dūr, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible; and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure.' So some think 'took up again' means that he had left it... but in my opinion that is not the only possible interpretation of that phrase.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Oct 7 2014, 11:55am)
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Oct 7 2014, 3:00pm
Post #41 of 47
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Yes, that last quote was the one stuck in my mind.
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I do believe squire is right. The difficulty here lies in the non-linear development of the story of the Ring, Sauron, and Numenor. In the end, Sauron needed the Ring for sake of the story, so Sauron got it!
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Oct 7 2014, 4:55pm
Post #42 of 47
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Yeah, although I haven't attempted to trace the external details here myself, it seems like Tolkien had no great explanation for... A) Why would Sauron not take the One to Numenor.... especially as he didn't know Numenor would be destroyed in such a major way? but then if so... B) ... how did the Ring get back to Middle-earth? It leads to some boggling... as I suspected
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Oct 7 2014, 5:26pm
Post #43 of 47
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I think the only real 'answer' we will ever get is...
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Tolkien is the creator/god of Middle-Earth, so his word is law. Accept it, or not. It might be that we have to focus more on the aesthetic view of the story, rather than the historical. (Quite like the Professor's view of Beowulf). Besides, can anyone conceive of Sauron losing the Ring? Boggle away!!
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
Oct 8 2014, 6:08pm
Post #44 of 47
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From what information we have regarding the three rings of the elves...
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We learn that their purpose was to preserve and create what the elves made. Tolkien is admittedly a bit unclear as to any other purpose they may have had. I think Sauron gave them the rings to tempt and corrupt them by giving them a taste of power only to exert his dominance to take them back and enslave them to his will. Obviously the one ring is more powerful than the others combined so by taking the others he gains more complete control.
"And so they stood on the walls of the city of Gondor, and a great wind rose and blew, and their hair, raven and golden, streamed out mingling in the air."
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Oct 8 2014, 7:21pm
Post #45 of 47
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Sauron didn't give the Three to the Elves.
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Celebrimbor made the Three in secret, and Sauron never touched them, although his "technology" was used in their making. When Sauron put on The One Ring, the Elves became aware of him and took their Rings off in fear and anger. Sauron tried to claim the Rings to distribute them to other peoples; he waged war against the Elves, and Eregion was destroyed. Celebrimbor managed to salvage the Three and secretly gave them to Gil-galad and Galadriel. As I noted above, the Elves were unable to use the Three until the One was lost.
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Oct 8 2014, 7:22pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 10 2014, 2:29pm
Post #46 of 47
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'Though reduced to a 'spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of domination minds now largely depended.'
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.) Walt Whitman in "Song of Myself" ~~~~~~ "nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' " Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!" This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 16 2014, 3:15pm
Post #47 of 47
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Come to think of it (boggle no more...)
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It's hard to imagine Sauron reduced to something like a cloud of smoke, and yet able to carry a ring. It sounds silly. On the other hand, how about the Black Riders of LOTR? They can interact with physical objects. They wear robes to clothe their nothingness, but the black robes do not simply fall to the ground when they put them on. Instead the robes behave as if they had been placed upon something solid and man-shaped. The Black Riders can also open the door at Crickhollow, and can attack people with physical weapons (e.g. Aragorn can handle the remains of the morghul knife used to wound Frodo). So if Sauron were left wraith-like rather than smoke-like, perhaps he could carry a ring after all? Of course, none of it make sense in terms of real-life, but that's hardly the point in a fantasy tale....
~~~~~~ "nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' " Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!" This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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