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Cillendor
Lorien
Oct 1 2014, 9:12pm
Post #51 of 63
(235 views)
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Even in the movie, I think he can be excused.
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If the Dwarves viewed the Arkenstone as a "holy stone" (what the name means) and considered it a sign from Mahal that Thror's right to rule was divine, then it would make perfect sense within the bounds of their religion to wait to go to war under Thorin until after he'd reclaimed it. The Arkenstone can perhaps be viewed as a sort of Ark of the Covenant, signifying that Mahal's blessing is on the line of Durin. If Thorin doesn't have the gem then he symbolically is lacking Mahal's favor, and going to war against a dragon would be futile.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Oct 1 2014, 10:33pm
Post #52 of 63
(223 views)
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...but Thorin said to Gandalf in Bree, before the Blue Mountains powwow, that the Dwarves would not unite under him unless he had the Arkenstone. So if Thorin already knew the Dwarves wouldn't unite under him without the Arkenstone, what was that meeting even for? Was Thorin seriously planning on invading Erebor, even while he already knew the other Dwarves wouldn't come (and also after already agreeing to Gandalf's stealth plan)?
In any case, I wish they hadn't included that line about Dain. Because I can completely see where some people are getting this idea of Dain being an opportunist.
(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Oct 1 2014, 10:34pm)
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KeenObserver
Lorien
Oct 1 2014, 10:50pm
Post #53 of 63
(219 views)
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Perhaps Thorin thought he could persuade Dáin to join him.
He probably proposed the idea of the quest with a humble tone and a desperate "please" thrown in there too.
And I wouldn't view Dáin as an opportunist because he refuses to take on a formidable dragon without an
Arkenstone wielding leader to follow and then comes to Thorin's aid when he can now see a realistic
chance for victory.
”The thirst for adventure is the vent which Destiny offers; a war, a crusade, a gold mine, a new country, speak to the imagination and offer…” - Jose Bergamin
(This post was edited by KeenObserver on Oct 1 2014, 10:51pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Oct 1 2014, 10:50pm
Post #54 of 63
(215 views)
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One assumes it is the kind of thing that is worth checking
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Before going up against a dragon alone, even if you are pretty sure the answer will be no!
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Oct 1 2014, 11:03pm
Post #55 of 63
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But they weren't supposed to be going up against the dragon...
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That was the whole purpose of bringing Bilbo along. Bilbo was supposed to sneak in and get the Arkenstone, there wasn't supposed to be a battle with Smaug presumably until the Dwarves were united (of course, there ended up being one anyway in Jackson's version).
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Oct 1 2014, 11:16pm
Post #56 of 63
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In the films, Gandalf advises both Thrain and Thorin to gather an army and destroy Smaug. Thorin says that the other dwarves won't follow him without the stone (but has a go at persuading them). Gandalf offers to help steal the stone - in order that Thorin can use it to gather the armies and destroy the dragon.
I'm not quite sure if that is what you were asking though?
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Oct 1 2014, 11:22pm
Post #57 of 63
(209 views)
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Did you interpret my phrase "going up against" as specifically meaning planning to fight the dragon. Apologies if so - I just meant going to his lair and putting themselves in harm's way.
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KeenObserver
Lorien
Oct 1 2014, 11:25pm
Post #58 of 63
(217 views)
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I guess Thorin just asked Dáin if he and his troops would simply accompany them on
the quest.
And I suppose Dáin told Thorin to call him once he got his hands on the Arkenstone.
Or . . . Perhaps Thorin was hoping that if he got Dáin to agree to the quest then it might
influence the other Dwarf kingdoms to join them. And at Bag end, Mr. Oakenshield would
have told Gandalf that Bilbo was no longer needed.
”The thirst for adventure is the vent which Destiny offers; a war, a crusade, a gold mine, a new country, speak to the imagination and offer…” - Jose Bergamin
(This post was edited by KeenObserver on Oct 1 2014, 11:34pm)
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Oct 1 2014, 11:27pm
Post #59 of 63
(207 views)
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Thorin calls a meeting with the purpose of asking the Dwarves to unite after he and Gandalf had already agreed to have Bilbo steal the Arkenstone for the very purpose of uniting the Dwarves (because the Dwarves won't recognize Thorin unless he has the Arkenstone, something Thorin is revealed to be acutely aware of). This is what happened, is it not?
(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Oct 1 2014, 11:29pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Oct 1 2014, 11:31pm
Post #60 of 63
(201 views)
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Thorin strongly suspects he will need the stone but meets the other dwarves to check before embarking on the burglary plan, as discussed.
As I say, one assumes that checking is worthwhile before heading to a dragon's lair.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Oct 1 2014, 11:34pm
Post #61 of 63
(204 views)
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Seemed like more than just suspicion on Thorin's part...
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...in fact he seemed pretty dang sure of it 
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Oct 1 2014, 11:38pm
Post #62 of 63
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Almost certain, probably. Maybe a bit of self- doubt added in there too.
But surely worth having a final crack at persuading them before setting off on such a dangerous mission?
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Bard'sBlackArrow
Lorien
Oct 2 2014, 12:38am
Post #63 of 63
(211 views)
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...but Thorin said to Gandalf in Bree, before the Blue Mountains powwow, that the Dwarves would not unite under him unless he had the Arkenstone. So if Thorin already knew the Dwarves wouldn't unite under him without the Arkenstone, what was that meeting even for? Was Thorin seriously planning on invading Erebor, even while he already knew the other Dwarves wouldn't come (and also after already agreeing to Gandalf's stealth plan)?
In any case, I wish they hadn't included that line about Dain. Because I can completely see where some people are getting this idea of Dain being an opportunist.
Yup, that would be me. Thank you for the earlier response too. I know once I get my copy of the Hobbit back from a coworker I will definitely be looking out for the differences with Dain. I should have known that was a PJ invention.
... on the other side of tomorrow...
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