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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 30 2014, 3:02pm
Post #26 of 47
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Some confusing statements here...
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Well, the question was, what makes it so that the East-elves of Mirkwood and Lorien are Avari? And according to very late text (Unfinished Tales) the Elves of Mirkwood and Lorien are Telerin Elves who began the Great Journey.
What you are doing here is seemingly taking what I'm saying about Eldar from The Lord of the Rings -- which makes these Elves 'not Eldar' but not necessarily Avari... and since we can call them 'not Eldar' based on that conception, you then employ the Silmarillion different definition to conclude they must be Avari. But it's rather:
The Lord of the Rings
The Silvan Elves of Mirkwood and Lorien are East-elves, not Eldar (in Middle-earth terms only the Noldor and Sindar are Eldar), but never stated to be Avari.
Well, even though the term Avari isn't used, that is what the East-elves are. The only question here is whether the Wood-elves really are East-elves.
Posthumously published work
The Silvan Elves of Mirkwood and Lorien are Eldar in the sense of taking up the March, according to The Silmarillion index. These Telerin Elves are, interestingly, called Eldar 'in origin' in a late Unfinished Tales text.
In neither scenario are these Silvan Elves necessarily Avari. In Quendi And Eldar it was said that certain of the Lindarin Avari ultimately mixed with these Telerin Elves in the Anduin Vale, but in a later text in Unfinished Tales we have Telerin Nandor 'hardly to be distinguished from Avari' from a cultural perspective.
It becomes important here to know what was written when. Much of what Tolkien wrote previous to the LotR can be discarded where there is a contradiction. Later writings bear more weight than those early ones, but we don't know if Tolkien might have further revised them if they had seen publication during his lifetime. In the light of these passages, the Silvan Elves could be counted as Teleri even if, as Elves who had never completed the Great Journey, they were still "more wild and less wise" than their cousins who made it to the Undying Lands.
As far as the films and Tauriel goes, Jackson is free to do as he pleases without explaining himself.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Sep 30 2014, 5:05pm
Post #27 of 47
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Well, even though the term Avari isn't used, that is what the East-elves are. The only question here is whether the Wood-elves really are East-elves.
But did Tolkien decide it was so? To my mind East-elves doesn't necessarily mean Avari even though it can include them as being Elves from the East.
Is it not interesting that Tolkien, in Appendix F, seemingly connects West Elves with Eldar but with East Elves he doesn't choose the term Avari? 'The Elves far back in the Elder Days became divided into two main branches: the West-elves (the Eldar) and the East-elves. Of the latter kind were most of the elven-folk of Mirkwood and Lórien; but their languages do not appear in this history, in which all the Elvish names and words are of Eldarin form.'
As I've been saying (but earlier without quotes), the Silvan Elves do not speak an Eldarin language, and are not Eldarin, as Appendix F also notes that Eldar was the name of the Three Kindreds that sought for the Undying Realm '... and came there at the beginning of Days (save the Sindar only).'
It becomes important here to know what was written when. Much of what Tolkien wrote previous to the LotR can be discarded where there is a contradiction. Later writings bear more weight than those early ones,...'
I agree, except when something earlier is already published. Even Tolkien minded that.
... but we don't know if Tolkien might have further revised them if they had seen publication during his lifetime.
That's right, we don't know. But I can't weight 'maybes' and for myself I see no reason to consistently give weight to one definition Tolkien himself never even published, even if we can date it 'later' than the books, over something else he did himself publish.
I'm not even sure, in his later life, Tolkien always realized exactly what he had published when he was writing a given text... and in my opinion one can hardly 'truly' decide to revise something if you don't realize you will be contradicting already published work.
Half of the reason I even post this is because the Silmarillion definition of Eldar seems to be so accepted as 'truth' it becomes a confusion to even challenge it with The Lord of the Rings itself!
That seems a bit odd to me 
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 30 2014, 5:17pm
Post #28 of 47
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It seems the key here is just how we are defining East-elves.
If by East-elves we mean the Elves that never heeded the Valar's call and never began the Great Journey then all East-elves are Avari.
If, on the other hand, we include the Elves that started on the Great Journey but never crossed the sea to reach Valinor then some East-Elves are Avari while others are Teleri (the Sindar, Nandor and any others who were part of the Great Journey but never sailed West).
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Sep 30 2014, 5:32pm
Post #29 of 47
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In any event, don't we now seem to agree, at least, that East-elves need not mean the Avari (as in only the Avari)?
And did you mean to include the Sindar in the second part? They are West-elves, being Eldar
They marched and reached the Western shores... even if they did not sail West (Appendix F, and Amroth's words to Nimrodel, in my opinion).
(This post was edited by Elthir on Sep 30 2014, 5:39pm)
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sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea
Oct 1 2014, 5:56am
Post #30 of 47
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Except for all the material Tolkien actually wrote on the subject,
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and everything that happened between Gimli and Legolas (and Galadriel) in the LotR films. We did not need some dumb "romance" for that story to make sense-- it already made sense.
because that is the only thing that would make Legolas' later feelings about dwarves make sense.
(This post was edited by sauget.diblosio on Oct 1 2014, 6:00am)
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Oct 1 2014, 10:12am
Post #32 of 47
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All good points!... Am curious too...
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'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 1 2014, 1:26pm
Post #33 of 47
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In any event, don't we now seem to agree, at least, that East-elves need not mean the Avari (as in only the Avari)? And did you mean to include the Sindar in the second part? They are West-elves, being Eldar They marched and reached the Western shores... even if they did not sail West (Appendix F, and Amroth's words to Nimrodel, in my opinion).
Actually, that is why I don't like the second definition of East-elves above. If the Wood-elves are remnants of the Nandor who remained in Middle-earth then they are NOT East-elves (Avari) because they were part of the Great Journey. The Teleri were the Third Kindred of Elves (following the Vanyar and Nandor). The Teleri who remained in Middle-earth were subdivided into the Sindar and Nandor (some of whom became the Laiquendi). So, if all or part of the Wood-elves were Nandor then Tauriel might very well have been Eldar.
Tolkien scholars are conflicted concerning the Avari. David Day alledges that the East-elves eventually spread throughout Middle-earth and became the Silvan Elves (Wood-elves); Robert Foster supposes the same, but s is less certain. J.E.A. Tyler makes no such assumption, linking the Wood-elves of Mirkwood and Lothlorien (and probably Lindon) to the Nandor. He seems to feel that the Avari remained in the East (barring evidence to the contrary). Of course, my sources above date from before The History of Middle-earth volumes, which may shed further light on the subject.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Oct 1 2014, 2:56pm
Post #34 of 47
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I'm not wholly sure (yet) why you don't like the second characterization: The West Elves (Eldar) are those Elves who went West at least as far as Beleriand on the original March. They include all the Elves that passed over the Sea plus the Sindar only (Appendix F)
That's pretty westery
The East-elves are (can be) those that remained 'in the East' with respect to the original journey: in Eriador and in the Anduin Vale the Nandor, and further East still, the Avari.
I note Christopher Tolkien's description of Eldar in the list of names to his constructed Children of Hurin [while it's not JRRT himself it's interesting to see his phrasing here compared to what he published in the posthumously published Silmarillion): 'Eldar The Elves of the Great Journey out of the East to Beleriand.'
Interesting: 'out of the East'... and the implication must be 'at least to Beleriand' as obviously some Eldar passed Over Sea as well.
Unfortunately I don't think this is his only characterization of Eldar even in this book however. But still 
Also although this time from an early-ish source, The Lhammas [The Lost Road]: 'This is very clear. The term Eldar has acquired its later significance of the Elves of the Great Journey (only), and it is not restricted to those who in the end went to Valinor, but included the Elves of Beleriand; the Eldar are those who completed the Journey form Kuivienen to the country between EredLindon and the Sea.'
Okay there is more than that in this quote (the next sentence even goes into the early designations for other Elves), but I'm not citing it all because it is early-ish in any case, and I'm only citing this much because it is something like what I think Tolkien landed on much later for The Lord of the Rings.
If we keep in mind the significance of Beleriand in history, and it being a very Western land in Middle-earth terms, I think it makes easy sense, and I think Amroth's late statement to Nimrodel about 'the shores' can also be related to the Western-ness of the original Marchers.
I used to think East-elves must refer to only the Avari, but now it seems to me, so far anyway, that it need only include them.
Unless I change my mind again
(This post was edited by Elthir on Oct 1 2014, 3:04pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 1 2014, 3:27pm
Post #35 of 47
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The Three Kindreds and the Avari
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The Eldar include ALL of the Elves who heeded Orome's call and set out from Cuivienen in the East to begin the Great Journey. These were the Three Kindreds: The Vanyar, Noldar and Teleri. The Sindar was only one faction of the Teleri; the Nandor was another. The Sundering happened in the East and it is unclear whether the Avari ever made it into the western lands. Even Tolkien went back-and-forth on the issue. At most, he suggested that perhaps only small numbers of Avari did so and were absorbed into the Sindar and Nandor populations.
I started out here thinking that many or most of the Wood-elves were Avari; however, this discussion has changed my mind. However, culturally, the Silvan Elves were more like the Avari than like the rest of the Eldar ("more wild and less wise").
You wrote:
I used to think East-elves must refer to only the Avari, but now it seems to me, so far anyway, that it need only include them.
Um...what? Redundancy is redundant. I don't think you posted what you meant to post.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Faleel
Rohan
Oct 1 2014, 3:41pm
Post #36 of 47
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Probably missed a "not":
"Need not only include them"
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Oct 2 2014, 2:51pm
Post #37 of 47
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You are once again describing the characterization of 'Eldar' as found in posthumously published texts, rather than in The lord of the Rings where it is the Elves of Aman plus the Sindar only. I understand the Silmarillion based definition. My question however (and perhaps I was unclear above) was meant in this context: if we were to accept what the author himself actually published about the word Eldar...
... which feels a bit odd to even have to suggest as an if-scenario ... ahem but moving onward...
... if we accept the characterization of Eldar as West elves (LOTR), I don't fully understand what would then be problematic about accepting East-elves as including both Elves that did not reach Beleriand, and thus remained in the East with respect to the Great March at least, and the Avari. They can both be 'East-elves' and Tolkien's idea about the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood and Lorien being (Telerin) Nandor who gave up the march can still be true...
... in other words, without them necessarily being Avari.
Also, maybe it's just me, but my statement (the one in question, although I realize why it can be read differently) means that I think the term East-elves need only 'include' the Avari, instead of meaning 'only' the Avari. In other words it can include Avarin clans from the East as well as non-Eldarin Silvan Elves from Mirkwood and Lorien...
... who did not originally march far enough to even attempt, at least originally during the Great Journey, to sail over Sea...they did not go West enough upon the original march... unlike the West-elves (Eldar), again using the Appendix F characterization.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Oct 2 2014, 3:02pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 2 2014, 9:13pm
Post #38 of 47
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I had to go back and read the appropriate passage from The Lord of the Rings to see precisely what you were stating. It's been a while since I've read some of that material. I am looking at Appendix F - Of the Elves:
The Elves far back in the Elder Days became divided into two main branches: the West-elves (the Eldar) and the East-elves. Of the latter kind were most of the elven-folk of Mirkwood and Lorien; but their languages do not appear in this history, in which all the Elvish names and words are of Eldarin form.
This is likely what originally convinced me that the Silvan Elves of Rhovanion were Avari. However, I have since come to accept the idea that all or most of them are Noldor by separating Tolkien the scholar from Tolkien the author. I imagine Tolkien the scholar to mistakenly assume that the Wood-elves of Mirkwood and Lorien were East-elves when he translated the memoirs of Bilbo and Frodo, only to realize his mistake much later while translating the manuscripts comprising The Silmarillion. The error could even be attributed to Frodo's limited knowledge of the Three Kindreds of the Elves and the Avari. In this way, we can account for and explain away the contradictions between the texts.
At the same time, you seem to still have a misapprehension concerning what distinguishes the Eldar from the Avari. All of those who set out upon the Great Journey were Eldar. It does not matter if they made it to the Undying Lands, if they stopped at the shore of the sea or if they never made it as far as Eriador. Those Teleri who stopped east of the Misty Mountains were still Eldar, as are their descendants.
Cuivienen, where the first Elves awoke, was far to the east of even Rhovanion. While there might have been Avari who wandered into Rhovanion and Eriador (and perhaps even into Beleriand), they were not Eldar. I'm not sure that you have made that distinction. If I am mistaken in this, I do apologize.
It's funny. If I had realized that this side-discussion was going to last this long, I would have suggesting taking it to the private messages. Oh well, maybe someone else still wants to chime in on the subject.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 2 2014, 9:19pm)
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Cirashala
Valinor
Oct 3 2014, 4:54am
Post #39 of 47
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and have been following this sub thread in it's entirety
The debate seems to center on whether or not you consider author published as canon, or any texts related to ME as canon.
If you go ONLY by text published while Tolkien was alive, then the definitions that Elthir uses to support his argument would be valid, and the Silvan elves aren't Eldar (and may well be Avari), or at the very least, he was undecided on the subject.
However, if you consider texts on ME published posthumously (namely the Silmarillion, edited by Christopher Tolkien), then the wood elves would be Eldar, because they fit that definition of having undertaken the Great Journey originally (whereas the Avari are explicitly stated as those who never left Cuvienen), though they left the group early on by the eastern slopes of the Misty Mountains (for the record, I consider this to be the final word on it, and the Silvan elves are Teleri, thus Eldar if not Sindarin).
So in the end it boils down to whether a person accepts the Sil and other posthumously published works as being canon, or only works published by Tolkien himself, as to whether the Silvan elves are Eldar in origin or not.
So technically you both are correct- depending on your perceived canonity (sp?) of texts related to Middle-earth.
And that is largely a matter of personal opinion, and subject to individual interpretation as to the statements' validity 
(This post was edited by Cirashala on Oct 3 2014, 4:56am)
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kilifili
The Shire
Oct 3 2014, 12:08pm
Post #40 of 47
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And somewhere I read E. Lilly mentioning that there will be a scene beside the lake where the runestone will play a role as well... http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2014/06/22/90301-hobbit-3-fact-sheet-what-do-we-actually-know-about-the-hobbit-the-battle-of-the-five-armies/#taurielkili
“And the ship went out into the High Sea and passed into the West, until at last on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a far green country under a swift sunrise.”
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 3 2014, 1:58pm
Post #41 of 47
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So in the end it boils down to whether a person accepts the Sil and other posthumously published works as being canon, or only works published by Tolkien himself, as to whether the Silvan elves are Eldar in origin or not. So technically you both are correct- depending on your perceived canonity (sp?) of texts related to Middle-earth. And that is largely a matter of personal opinion, and subject to individual interpretation as to the statements' validity
Peter Jackson and his colleagues can't explicitly mention The Silmarillion or Tolkien's other posthumous works; however, allowing Tauriel to sail west (if she does) honors those works and gets justification from them. Otherwise, as an East-elf, Tauriel should not be able to take ship to the Undying Lands without an exception being granted for her (as it was for Bilbo, Frodo, Sam and apparently Gimli).
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Oct 3 2014, 4:22pm
Post #42 of 47
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At the same time, you seem to still have a misapprehension concerning what distinguishes the Eldar from the Avari. All of those who set out upon the Great Journey were Eldar. It does not matter if they made it to the Undying Lands, if they stopped at the shore of the sea or if they never made it as far as Eriador. Those Teleri who stopped east of the Misty Mountains were still Eldar, as are their descendants.
But I apprehend that
Yet it does matter how westery the Elves made it according to The Lord of the Rings (and similarly in the earlier Lhammas).
As I've said earlier, yours is the characterization from the posthumously published Silmarillion, yes; although here I'll just add that you have only posted part of The Lord of the Rings characterization of Eldar, as the second part (also) appears in the end of Appendix F, On Translation -- see the 'save the Sindar only' part where the Eldar are physically described in some measure.
I imagine Tolkien the scholar to mistakenly assume that the Wood-elves of Mirkwood and Lorien were East-elves when he translated the memoirs of Bilbo and Frodo, only to realize his mistake much later while translating the manuscripts comprising The Silmarillion. The error could even be attributed to Frodo's limited knowledge of the Three Kindreds of the Elves and the Avari. In this way, we can account for and explain away the contradictions between the texts.
Which obviously you are free to do, but on the other hand you can call very many things a 'mistake of the original author (not Tolkien) or translator', and to my mind this sort of thing should be a last resort kind of explanation, because I think it is a fairly weak path to take.
My other point would be however, that there's not really a contradiction... yes there is in one sense of course, but in another important sense, it's no more a contradiction than Galadriel being Gil-galad's brother, for example, which is also a posthumously published idea that Tolkien wrote.
Moreover, if one is going to stamp 'error' on something, I say why not the idea that was not published by the author?
And this is, in part in my opinion, why there is now an editorial 'correction' about the very passage I just referred to in Appendix F; although I won't go into that beyond saying that it seems an effort to 'correct' something that doesn't really need correction, as the correction only hails from considering posthumously published 'draft' descriptions compared to author published decisions... then calling it a 'contradiction'.
Which is fine in one sense, but in another: so what: we are essentially forcing the contradiction, then forcing ourselves to find an answer -- when with respect to the Subcreated World, all the author really let you know was that the Eldar were those who went to the Undying Lands save the Sindar only: the West-elves.
There's no error there... we could find one easily by looking through Tolkien's private papers, but what are we really finding?
Granted, Tolkien probably had to land on: 'mistake of the author (or character)' with something like Gimli stating he had killed no Orcs since Moria after he had hunted and killed orcs with Legolas (after the Company had de-boated)... in other words, that's the last resort when he creates such a bind even a young Smaug couldn't easily worm himself out of -- but here there is really no such bind unless we construct it; and here we can't even be sure Tolkien only wrote the conflicting characterization because he had simply forgotten what he had published (a very real possibility here).
Anyway, it's boiling down to canon now so we probably won't agree. Sorry it I annoy about 'author published'... I maybe should create a good long 'signature' about this then perhaps I won't have to annoy folks so much...
... but would that stop me? Probably not
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KingTurgon
Rohan
Oct 3 2014, 9:00pm
Post #43 of 47
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I hope it won't play out at all
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I've seen AUJ at least 15 times in the just over year and a half its been out, but I've only seen DOS about 5 times, and that is the reason why. It just feels completely un-Tolkien and a bit forced to me. I don't blame PJ though, I tend to cast the blame for this one on the studio. Just to be clear though, I am not mad at anyone on a personal level, I just dislike this particular edition to the story.
(This post was edited by KingTurgon on Oct 3 2014, 9:03pm)
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Oct 3 2014, 10:15pm
Post #44 of 47
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Don't know how much the studio had to do with it...
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Judging by one or two interviews I've read, the Kili/Tauriel thing was the brainchild of Phillipa Boyens and Fran Walsh.
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KingTurgon
Rohan
Oct 3 2014, 10:26pm
Post #45 of 47
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I've seen the studio cited most frequently
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But I could believe Boyens would be one of the advocates as well (I'm not criticizing right now, but I am pretty sure that she has said more than once that TH needs "feminine energy"). I don't know enough about Fran Walsh to make a statement on her though.
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Noria
Gondor
Oct 4 2014, 4:13pm
Post #46 of 47
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Boyens has made mention of feminine energy but that is not at all the same thing as romance.
The origin of the relationship idea really doesn't matter. Obviously Peter Jackson at least agreed to it and filmed it so the responsibility is his.
Overall I like the relationship between Kili and Tauriel, this meeting of young people and cultures in a way that stands in stark contrast to the dealings of their elders. That is a huge and interesting addition to the story, IMO. For me both the Starlight Feast and Kingsfoil scenes are great right until Kili says “Do you think she could have loved me?” I would have preferred that they stop short of implying romantic feelings. I agree with Dormouse that there is a limit to how far they can take this romance but the arc has to be completed.
That being said, it’s not enough to mar my enjoyment of the movie.
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KingTurgon
Rohan
Oct 4 2014, 6:27pm
Post #47 of 47
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Regarding enjoyment of the movie
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I still greatly enjoy it (DOS) - everything besides the romance is fantastic - I was just thinking of how I feel about it in comparison to AUJ, which I don't really have any major gripes about.
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