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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 28 2014, 8:26pm
Post #26 of 37
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It is more of a matter of inferences. I don't think that Saruman's pride would allow him to admit that he had compromised himself seriously until after he started contemplating allying himself with Sauron. He was, to coin a phrase, too close to Fangorn to see the Ents. Granted, this may only be my own humble opinion!
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 28 2014, 8:27pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Sep 28 2014, 8:33pm
Post #27 of 37
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Well, not much more to say then I guess.
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Though it would seem an odd approach to me to set inferences above direct quotes.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 28 2014, 8:46pm
Post #28 of 37
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Though it would seem an odd approach to me to set inferences above direct quotes.
The inferences were drawn from the published texts that Prof. Tolkien was able to proof himself. We often cannot be sure when the posthumous works supercede (or even expand upon) the earlier texts. It can be helpful, though, when we can determine Tolkien's later thoughts on the legendarium.
We do seem to have exhausted the subject.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Sep 28 2014, 9:12pm
Post #29 of 37
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Well, as I say, strange to me, personally.
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I can well understand that we will draw inferences where there is no evidence but, as I say, it would seem odd to me to draw an inference that is contradicted by numerous quotes (from more than one text). Whilst not perfect, it seems to me the latter is much more strongly evidenced, than the former. But perhaps that is just me.
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moreorless
Gondor
Sep 29 2014, 11:25am
Post #30 of 37
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Remember we still don't know what happens at Dol Guldor...
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Its a very hard question to answer because we simply don't know what form the Dol Guldor confrontation is going to take and how this might relate to Gandalf leaving.I think its certainly possible that Gandalf might actually leave before the end of any confrontation knowing that help is needed at Erebor.
Equally of course we don't know for sure that some or all of the white council might actually turn up at Erebor in time for the battle.
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Sep 29 2014, 12:41pm
Post #31 of 37
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and how the DG subplot pans out is going to be one of the most interesting reveals for me.
There is no doubt from the scroll that the release of Gandalf comes early in the film.
I use the term advisedly because in story telling terms DG performs two functions :-
1) As in the book it takes Gandalf away from the confrontation with Smaug and removes him until a particular point.
2) In the film it provides us with the geo political context of the BOTFA and the context of the Quest for Erebor.
At the end of the DG sequence we will know two things :-
i) Gandalf has been released.
ii) It is more crucial than ever that the power of good wins the day the stakes have been raised.
The story telling is not about the descent of Saruman or the power/wisdom of Galadriel, both of these qualities are established further into the movie universe. It is about Gandalfs friends and in particular Galadriel at an emotional level, coming to Gandalf's rescue and revealing their power as a council interceding on his behalf in a uniquely collaborative way . Once that is achieved I believe they will withdraw from the story telling.
All of this was set up at the White Council in the first film and will be achieved what is not is not clear is whom the adversaries are (the nine) and to what extent we the audience perceive Sauron as defeated. Given that he wants a seamless transition across six films he will hint that neither Sauron or the nine have been vanquished but merely withdrawn with the morgul blade back in the hands of the witch king.
We may spend the entire second half of the movie (its a thriller) worrying about Sauron's intervention but I believe why so much has been invested in Azog ,he has been lifted in to pre eminent position as the commander of his legions, is to provide us with a suitable post Sauron adversary and will enable the climax of the story to focus on the final confrontation between Thorin and Azog its consequences and Azog's eventual nemesis who maybe .. one of several.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Sep 29 2014, 12:48pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 29 2014, 2:30pm
Post #32 of 37
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Radagast with Gandalf at Dale...
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Haven't we seen at least one image dipicting Radagaast with Gandalf in the ruins of Dale? It seems likely that Raddy will at least transport his colleague to the Lonely Mountain and loan/give him his staff before departing. Maybe Dol Guldur takes too much out of the Brown Wizard and he feels the need to return to Rhosgobel for a sabbatical (that turns into semi-retirement?).
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Sep 29 2014, 4:27pm
Post #33 of 37
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On page 77 of the official movie guide the scene with PJ to the right of the sled is described as "Peter makes sure that G is sitting comfortably on his fellow wizard sled as he and R prepare to leave DG.
If that were correct, and they certainly arrived that way, then perhaps there is a slowed down moment where G & R return to Rhosgobel and R summons the horse we see him riding to Dale on and in the trailer. Indeed this return to Dale by G may be on Beorn's horse who meets R and G in the forest.
One of the artists, the tall aesthetic looking one, has said in the appendices that Radagast returns to the forest and recedes into a shaman like character, perhaps on the journey from DG to Dale we say goodbye to Radagast in a gentle soothing way (with the handing over of the staff voluntarily "You will need it Gandalf") after the fireworks that have preceded this phase both in DG and at Laketown.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Sep 29 2014, 4:29pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 29 2014, 4:42pm
Post #34 of 37
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I doubt that I will see the movie guide for TH:BotFA before its U.S. street date. If this is correct, it sounds like a good way to resolve Radagast's arc.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Sep 30 2014, 5:11am
Post #35 of 37
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In the two movie version Gandalf leaves the company at the edge of Mirkwood on Beorn's horse and dashes to Dol Gulder (presumably that line "I need answers" comes from that version).
So Beorn whose history is tied to DG knows where he is going on his horse and maybe looking out for him.
In the actual film they arrive on the sleigh directly from the High Fells and R & G participates in dialogue which comes from the 2013 extended pick up section. However the story of Radagast's staff is a much earlier invention and suggests that after G's confrontation with Sauron Radagast was always going to be involved in some story telling with Gandalf.
The White Council story arc was filmed in the first block and any external filming in the second block I doubt that Gandalf's journey to Dale has changed a great deal. I suspect its more a question of how much is presented in the TE and EE.
Incidentally that shot I refer to is in DOS movie guide even though it clearly belongs to the post Sauron confrontation narrative.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 30 2014, 2:31pm
Post #36 of 37
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Some of the changes made later in the films are easy to see if one has been paying attention to early production information and images. Of course, it is also easy to forget some of the information that was leaked or released two or three years ago (or more).
Thanks again for keeping track and clarifying much of the production process.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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KingTurgon
Rohan
Oct 3 2014, 9:08pm
Post #37 of 37
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reminds me of a line that I thought was really clever in DOS. "We must force his hand." The first time Gandalf said that, I was thinking - aweseome, Gandalf is going to force Saruman to come to his rescue and go all-out! Love the political intrigue type story-telling in this plotline!
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