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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Sep 19 2014, 12:22pm
Post #1 of 23
(1936 views)
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This trilogy is good
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I read another pack of bad opinions about this trilogy and I need to speak my mind about it to feel a little bit of relief. The bloated sense of humor, the overuse of CGI. Etc...
Dudes, the movies are good, they have their own gravitas, fairy golden and more optiistic tone. Everytime I rewach AUJ I can picture a merrier world (as it was in my youngster years) and tht means, the humor, the colours(brighter) Etc.
The desing. Ok we see Thorin that is all bout the dwarve it wsn´t supossed to be, so what? We tend to think that ancient tales were plenty of ancient people, but the truth is another thing. My grampa was a hansome man, in his younger days we surely lived both funny and ridiculous situations beyond what I can imagine. Putting aside the reverence I see him as an elder figure. And also he surely went trough dramatic times at war here in Spain. As so the dwarves in this trilogy will gain (with time) the scent of legend they need to have by the time LOTR happens. Is just that we are knowing them in the time hobbit events happened...
In the case of Thorin he is perfectly fit in the dwarf culture, not that every dwarf has to loo like Gimli (who I love) the diference between the dwarves is an achevement. Look at Nori, he could be ridiculous, but also in some shots , promo shots of BOTFA he looks dark and fierece.
And concerning Legolas and Tauriel, I like them they are in the place they must be, in the edge of the razor between the conlficts of two races and a world in the blink of war.
The only think I dont like is the romance or that weird thing between Tauriel and Kili, but I feel that will be benefited by a longer vresion of the movie were it wouldnt be no longer such an important event as in the TE
When I approach to this trilogy I have a very singular feeling, in moments like in Bag End, the carrock BEORN HOUSE (the shot in the EE trailer were he is chopping wood is yelling FANTASY-MIDDLE EARTH I am completely transported into that wolrd with those shots) it is The Hobbit feeling, and PJ and co have worked on that especific feeling and tone and that is an achievement.
There is still two EE to come, a lot of story and I think is gonna be worthy.
At the end of the day, for me what it counts is that this movies allow me to avoid a bad mood, and that in a world like this is veeeeeery much
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer
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Arannir
Valinor
Sep 19 2014, 12:50pm
Post #2 of 23
(1207 views)
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It is all good. A lot of people are very much enjoying these movies - though not as much and not on the epic scale as with LotR.
Many people (myself) included think that this is because of two points:
1) after LotR even an expanded Hobbit leads to issues when it comes to expectations, audience pleasing, book fan pleasing etc. and
2) PJ and Co took their liberties too far in some areas and the first two movies ended up suffering from last-minute decisions (that is the point people tend to disagree the most on the extent and what of the liberties are good and which ones are not).
I think AUJ and DoS have been very good blockbuster movies with a lot of heart and many moments in which Tolkien's words simply come alive.
I also salute them for - what are in my view - improvements to TH as a story put to screen - the DG/WC subplot, Tauriel, and Bard's character, for example.
I also like some of PJ's typical over-indulgence moments - the barrels, for example. Or more extreme designs, such as Radagast.
I also think they often nailed the balance of showing the dwarves as a though and sometimes rowdy folk without taking away their dignity (though the burbing jokes and stuff are bound to annoy some people, while others find it completely acceptable).
What I do think would have made these movies better than "very good"?
Well...
... an earlier decision to go for three movies,
... earlier decision how Azog should look
... clear role-separation between Bolg and Azog (don't switch them in DoS when it comes to who is hunting the dwarves),
... leave the Tauriel/Kili scenes but do not get Legolas get involved in their relationship,
... shorten the escape from Goblin-town and Smaug vs Dwarves,
... let Gandalf venture to the High Fells in AUJ and let him suspect the Nazgul residing in DG when he enters the fortress.
... include a campsite-fire scene in which some of the Dwarves tell Bilbo about their reasons to join the quest for Erebor.
Those would be the big narrative changes that would - imho - improved on the "narrative flow" a lot.
Unfortunately there is a lot of extremes when it comes to discussing these movies in the internet... people get too defensive or too aggressive to really discuss the pros and cons in depth. Which then again aggravates the other side. I have found it much more enjoyable to discuss them in "the real world".
I have no problem stating my issues with these movies and still watch them and get totally carried away to Middle-earth by them - after all, part of the "experience" of these movies for me personally is also what comes surrounding them - TORN, the incredibly and unequaled depth of the extra material both on the EE DVDs and the vlogs, etc. .
Bot5A will have to deliver to make this a very good trilogy that - in 20 and 30 years - can proudly stand next to the masterpieces that are the LotR movies. And I am positive it will deliver :)
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Sep 19 2014, 12:54pm)
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dormouse
Half-elven
Sep 19 2014, 2:19pm
Post #3 of 23
(1096 views)
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Don't let the criticism worry you. Nothing in the world will ever please everyone, that's just the way things are. And the more you and I and others who like the films talk about how much we like them, the more people who were disappointed in them will feel driven to have their say as well - because when it comes to it, everyone wants to be heard.
I look at the films and I see incredible, breathtaking beauty. A depth of design and artistic skills you rarely see on screen. A story with real emotional depth and acting so good that it's easy to forget that they're acting at all, and just get lost in what's happening - and behind it all, the background story of a committed and very likeable bunch of people who work their socks off to make these films happen.
The fact that someone else doesn't like them, and says so, doesn't diminish my pleasure in them, though it can creat a very sour atmosphere around the discussion. But then, they feel the same about us, only in reverse.
Just carry on enjoying, it's OK - things that permit joy and escape in this world are rare and worth treasuring. But don't expect that everyone else will ever agree!
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tsmith675
Gondor
Sep 19 2014, 2:27pm
Post #4 of 23
(1091 views)
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I think this is a fantastic trilogy!
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It may not be as good as the LotR trilogy, which I see as a masterpiece in filmmaking. But the Hobbit films definitely are great films. I may not agree with every little detail that the filmmakers decided to make, but that's how things work when you're doing an adaptation. I love these films thoroughly. And I can't wait to see the concluding chapter. Also, watching the complete 6 film saga in one sitting is going to be amazing!
Our destiny lies above us.
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Misty Mountain Hop
Rivendell
Sep 19 2014, 2:48pm
Post #5 of 23
(1063 views)
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I do feel that it is unfortunate that The Hobbit films have to be put up and compared to LOTR. I wish they could be their own set of movies and rated accordingly. We were spoiled with LOTR and it will be tough and near impossible to replicate what happened there.
Final thought:
It's like getting two pieces of cake for dessert for a few meals, and then all of a sudden only getting one. You still get dessert, just not as much. It just depends on how you look at it.
"Only, you've never done a hard day's work." - Merry
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sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea
Sep 19 2014, 3:09pm
Post #6 of 23
(1072 views)
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I'm still trying to figure out how "good" they actually are.
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I know they're not terrible movies, but my disappointment in them is so great, and the parts of them that i don't like are so 'not good' (especially in DoS), that it's difficult to see the good parts for what they are. I still get kind of pissed when i think of some of the made-up stuff in DoS, and the fact that there was just so much of it, that i really don't even want to watch it again, even though i really did like much of it.
It's going to take some time, and it's going to depend a lot on how well BotFA turns out, and, to a lesser extent, how good the DoS EE is.
As i've been saying a lot lately... We shall see.
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Bernhardina
Rohan
Sep 19 2014, 3:22pm
Post #8 of 23
(1099 views)
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Even though I like AUJ more, personally, I think Desolation of Smaug really saved the trilogy. Now, of course we have to see BotFA but at this stage I don't think there will be a "bad" defining chapter to this trilogy. Not even an "okay" chapter - I think BOTFA will be a good movie!
Do you mind if I respond to some of your constructive points of cirtique?  I hope you don't!
... an earlier decision to go for three movies.
Yes, I agree with this - sort of: We will never know how these movies could have turned out. But I think PJ works very well when he is limited so perhaps it was also a good thing that this decision happened during production? Like I said, we will never know!
... earlier decision how Azog should look.
Nah. I think they should have rewritten the character! I don't mind what he looks like, he is just such a boring bad guy. I think they should have made an earlier decision how Azog should behave and how to make him an interesting character. But yeah, I would have prefered an actual actor playing him on screen.
... clear role-separation between Bolg and Azog (don't switch them in DoS when it comes to who is hunting the dwarves).
Yup. It almost seems like they didn't like Azog, so they thought "Hey, let's switch to this guy in the next movie to make things more interesting" but it is a wierd decision because they are the same. Bolg and Azog are so alike. Bolg is a bit more epic because he can actually hunt the dwarves instead of ordering others to do it.
... leave the Tauriel/Kili scenes but do not get Legolas get involved in their relationship.
Yes! YES! I actually like the Tauriel and Kili friendship (not as a fangirl-thing, I just think it works in the story and as a way of fleshing out Kili's character) but making Legolas a jelaous jerk just didn't make any sense to me AT ALL. Perhaps it will make sense in the EE or when we have seen BOTFA. At the moment? No 
... shorten the escape from Goblin-town and Smaug vs Dwarves.
It is a good suggestion, but these sequences should not have to be shortened if done right from the beginning. The escape from Goblin Town was boring, because there was no sense of danger to it. Smaug vs Dwarves was an improvement, but Thorin balancing on Smaugs mouth... yeah... not so great. That could have been left for the EE in my opinion.
... let Gandalf venture to the High Fells in AUJ and let him suspect the Nazgul residing in DG when he enters the fortress.
Wasn't this the original plan? When The Hobbit was supposed to be two movies? About the "let him suspect the Nazgul residing in DG"-thing I don't really see why that would be better, when I think it works well as it is in DoS.
... include a campsite-fire scene in which some of the Dwarves tell Bilbo about their reasons to join the quest for Erebor.
Excuse me, what? I mean, sure I would love that scene, but I never felt that by not understanding all the dwarves personal reasons for going on the quest it took away from the movie. I think Balin and Thorin talking in Bag End is enough, actually... though it is a nice scene, I would have liked it to have taken place somewhere else (because the Bag End-sequence is lenghty as it is).
And to end this post, some words for the thread-starter!
The movies in the trilogy are my favourite movies and I feel sorry for those who cannot enjoy them for what they are: Well-made entertaining fantasy films! I think some people are determined to hate them because they are not LOTR, and I think those people are mainly purists or haven't read the book at all! I love the book, but these are movies made by an entirely different person, Peter Jackson, who happens to be a brilliant director! I am so glad he made these films and no one else. They could have been horrible movies, but they aren't. They are good movies, some might even say they are fantastic movies (I would certainly say that) so don't you listen to anyone else but yourself!!! Those internet-trolls are crazy for not liking The Hobbit, but hey, that's okay because the movies are awesome anyway! 
(This post was edited by Bernhardina on Sep 19 2014, 3:24pm)
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Sep 19 2014, 3:27pm
Post #9 of 23
(1023 views)
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And I wouldn't care even if I were the only one to do so. I've long learned not to let the opinions of others diminish my enjoyment of things I like. Nor do I feel the need to defend myself for liking something. Nor do I have any desire to try to "convert" those who do not feel the same way I do. To each their own.
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Sep 19 2014, 3:29pm
Post #10 of 23
(1095 views)
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There is something we might all consider..
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TIME?
It always solves all PROBLEMz..?
IT is the Nature of Time
to do that?
So FAR, we have 3 products Released
In Time? we will have 3 more..
SSOoo..sit back
Hold Tight to your SEAT?
EE of DOS
TE of BOT5A
EE of BOT5A
Maybe?
THEN...consider the WHOLE
PRODUCT,
Production,
Produced,
Played out,
Permanently..
ImPrinted........ on our Collective Minds...
ONLY then..Time will Tell the Tale..
bom
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Loresilme
Valinor
Sep 19 2014, 3:32pm
Post #11 of 23
(1011 views)
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I especially appreciate that all the characters of the book are given individual personalities and identities in the films. It was a bold choice by the film team to stick to canon when it came to the number of dwarves and the gamble paid off. Very well done, IMO .
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moreorless
Gondor
Sep 19 2014, 4:32pm
Post #12 of 23
(1046 views)
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Two big factors with alot of the negativity for me...
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Whilst I do think were looking at lesser films than LOTR two big factors with a lot of the negativity for me are...
1. A backlash against Jackson was always likely to happen at some point, less so with hardcore fans that makeup the kind of people who post at TORN but with more general reviewers are viewers anything below LOTR quality was going to be treated harshly.
2.The Hobbit film coming after LOTR and being in production for so long has I'd say resulted in far more speculation on their content than with LOTR. If people have imagined there own version of the Hobbit then there less likely to enjoy one that differs from it if you ask me.
Honestly though I do think Jackson probably took the correct route in an "excessive" Hobbit, yes you could argue the films aren't quite as strong as the sum of their parts but I suspect a more cut down Hobbit would have lost too many of them. The Hobbit films aren't lacking in grand moments of course but personally a lot of the enjoyment I'v gotten out of them has been in the detail that would likely have needed to be trimmed.
(This post was edited by moreorless on Sep 19 2014, 4:33pm)
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Sep 19 2014, 5:43pm
Post #13 of 23
(949 views)
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with the DoS EE we will get more book more events and characters wich will give the movie a different flavour (with the withe stagg, more beorn and Thrain is enough for me)
not to tell the rest of what is to come
and all the extras!!
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer
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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
Sep 19 2014, 6:05pm
Post #14 of 23
(925 views)
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It's not quite on par with lots in some ways but I definitely dont regret it being made.
"And so they stood on the walls of the city of Gondor, and a great wind rose and blew, and their hair, raven and golden, streamed out mingling in the air."
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Noria
Gondor
Sep 19 2014, 8:44pm
Post #15 of 23
(886 views)
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I agree with moreorless that there was always going to be a backlash in the mainstream against Jackson and to some extent, Tolkien movies. The LotR movies were fresh and original is so many ways and The Hobbit movies are basically more of the same to the uninitiated. How many times have we read the same remarks repeated about a slim volume being made into three bloated movies or butter being scraped over too much bread? Cash grabs? Lack of artistic creativity?
Also, anyone who wanted an adaptation that closely reflected the whimsical children’s tale and what happened therein was bound to be disappointed when the story was super-sized, embellished and made more adult and epic.
Anyone looking for a more LotR-like movie like version of The Hobbit was disappointed by the tone and style of these movies, which include a lot of humour and whimsy in what is IMO a lesser story to begin with.
Many people have a lot of feeling invested in these movies because of their love of with The Hobbit book or the LotR movie trilogy or both. Naturally they are bitter and angry when things didn't work out the way they wanted them too. I just feel sorry for them – they are missing out on an extraordinary experience.
Enough people liked these movies to ensure that the first two were box office successes, which ensures that the second and third were completed and released (or will be) without cutbacks or limitations. That’s all I care about, except when I am in the mood to debate.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Sep 19 2014, 8:45pm
Post #16 of 23
(857 views)
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I do like these movies (even though it has taken a bit of effort and "bending over backwards" on my part), but they are far from being the movies I wanted.
Peter Jackson is not depicting The Hobbit, he's depicting what he wishes The Hobbit were. Fair enough, I suppose, as he's the guy who's adapting the movies (and I do like the idea of tying The Hobbit into the wider Middle-earth lore - I'm just not too thrilled with the execution). I think we all expected that PJ would add in some of his own material here and there, but I was not expecting it to this extent. I know I'll probably earn the wrath of some folks here, but I just do not think that PJ and his writing team are anywhere near the calibre of storyteller that Tolkien was. And when they start contradicting Tolkien lore, as in the survival of Azog or the Dwarf/Elf lovefest, well...yeah, its disappointing to me.
(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Sep 19 2014, 8:49pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Sep 19 2014, 9:59pm
Post #17 of 23
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Both films so far have been in the top 1% of most popular films in the world in their respective release years, so there probably isn't that much need to redress the balance, in actuality.
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SafeUnderHill
Rohan
Sep 19 2014, 11:00pm
Post #18 of 23
(807 views)
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Don't let the criticism worry you. Nothing in the world will ever please everyone, that's just the way things are. And the more you and I and others who like the films talk about how much we like them, the more people who were disappointed in them will feel driven to have their say as well - because when it comes to it, everyone wants to be heard.
I look at the films and I see incredible, breathtaking beauty. A depth of design and artistic skills you rarely see on screen. A story with real emotional depth and acting so good that it's easy to forget that they're acting at all, and just get lost in what's happening - and behind it all, the background story of a committed and very likeable bunch of people who work their socks off to make these films happen.
The fact that someone else doesn't like them, and says so, doesn't diminish my pleasure in them, though it can creat a very sour atmosphere around the discussion. But then, they feel the same about us, only in reverse.
Just carry on enjoying, it's OK - things that permit joy and escape in this world are rare and worth treasuring. But don't expect that everyone else will ever agree!
The difficulty with The Hobbit is it has such a huge following from LOTR film and Tolkien book fans. Changes from the tone of LOTR and from scenes in the book will always make some people angry, add to that the expectation of the huge fan base. It's a shame because there's a lot of greatness in the film's often overlooked.
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jtarkey
Rohan
Sep 20 2014, 1:26am
Post #19 of 23
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There seems to be a general consensus that these films are good, but not on par with Lord of the Rings. I agree, and I think the reasoning is rational...
Over use of CGI, sloppy storytelling, last minute descisions, and lack of emotional depth. Those are my biggest problems with these films. I don't think it's sensationalist to think these things.
They aren't bad, and I really enjoy DOS. But I can't help but think they could have been so much more.
"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"
^^^ That unnecessary apostrophe and "e" is due to the leaf itself. And this part of the signature was documented quite some time after the effect had worn off.
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Sep 20 2014, 2:26am
Post #20 of 23
(804 views)
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...and no film ever satisfies everybody. I think the best thing anybody can do, regardless of their opinion on these films (or any films), is to not worry quite so much about what other people say about the films you enjoy/dislike.
I can't even count the number of times I've seen films I've raved to high heaven get torn to shreds on message boards I tend to frequent (some critically acclaimed, others...not so much). It's natural for us to want films we enjoy to get mass support and popularity, but it doesn't always happen.
I have my own issues with some elements of these films, but I try not to let outside opinions sway me too much. I just sit back and enjoy the ride, forming my own assessment as I go along.
I think something we can definitely all do, though, is continue to respect others' opinions about the films. Thankfully, this is the best kind of place in that sense.
"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen
(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Sep 20 2014, 2:40am)
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moreorless
Gondor
Sep 20 2014, 2:27am
Post #21 of 23
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You only need to look at AUJ reviews...
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I agree with moreorless that there was always going to be a backlash in the mainstream against Jackson and to some extent, Tolkien movies. The LotR movies were fresh and original is so many ways and The Hobbit movies are basically more of the same to the uninitiated. How many times have we read the same remarks repeated about a slim volume being made into three bloated movies or butter being scraped over too much bread? Cash grabs? Lack of artistic creativity? Also, anyone who wanted an adaptation that closely reflected the whimsical children’s tale and what happened therein was bound to be disappointed when the story was super-sized, embellished and made more adult and epic. Anyone looking for a more LotR-like movie like version of The Hobbit was disappointed by the tone and style of these movies, which include a lot of humour and whimsy in what is IMO a lesser story to begin with. Many people have a lot of feeling invested in these movies because of their love of with The Hobbit book or the LotR movie trilogy or both. Naturally they are bitter and angry when things didn't work out the way they wanted them too. I just feel sorry for them – they are missing out on an extraordinary experience. Enough people liked these movies to ensure that the first two were box office successes, which ensures that the second and third were completed and released (or will be) without cutbacks or limitations. That’s all I care about, except when I am in the mood to debate.
I think you can see this issue in a lot of reviews of AUJ especially. I don't remember actually seeing a film so disagreed on by critics and indeed fans, many will say its a film with one half better than the other but they will disagree on which half.
As you say Jackson had a very difficult balancing act to carry off in terms of tone that was never going to please everyone. Personally though I think this is actually the biggest achievement of these film that the tone between LOTR and the Hobbit book does actually work and isn't greatly jarring
Again my view is really that these were never going to be films on the level of LOTR simply because the story that strong wasn't there. I suspect Jackson likely saw this as well and instead tried to focus on putting in as much interesting material as possible. The odd action scene in excessive(Goblin Town, Barrel escape) but I think theres both Hobbit like and LOTR like material that adds to the attraction, cut out either of these or cut down the films generally and I don't think you end up with as strong a result.
(This post was edited by moreorless on Sep 20 2014, 2:32am)
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Sep 20 2014, 11:30pm
Post #22 of 23
(662 views)
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"...EVERY Good Story Deserves SUM... Embellishment.."
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VERY Smart Move
EARLY in AUJ
by
IAN McKellen & that
OTHER.. liitl'
guy..?
GET a Grip,
Make your own movie?
Which part of
yOOUR... Livin' Room Floor
DOzzz
your LOGIC?
HAVE?.... a LEG?
to STAND on
.........................
Pukein' on PJ has become a Hobby?
Bom guesses that "WAS the Price he had to pay" ?
FOR his 16 years years of TRYin' Really Hard to PLEASE
this planet..?
{{{...Ponder that
when you BUY Your Ticket?....}}}}
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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VeArkenstone
Lorien
Sep 21 2014, 7:17pm
Post #23 of 23
(607 views)
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Tolkien has taken liberties, yes. For instance,
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the barrel sequence is one of my favorite sequences out all of the five movies, and would not quite be the same if the Dwarves were all sealed inside of the barrels as in the book. It would have been quite boring, actually. And I love the amazing 3-5 second scenes in it, don't blink or you will miss them!
There is also much reading-between-the-lines in Tolkien's works, quite a bit is unexplained and left to each individual imagination to fill in. I know Tauriel was not in the book, but no one can say she did not exist!
I think PJ is highly intelligent and has a vivid imagination. His movies reflect this, and not just his Tolkien-related movies either.
Please, call me Ve.
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