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Let's have a Lord Of The Rings fossil hunt!

noWizardme
Half-elven


Sep 17 2014, 3:43pm

Post #1 of 14 (2578 views)
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Let's have a Lord Of The Rings fossil hunt! Can't Post

I should explain what I mean by "fossil" first!

Tolkien was a pretty careful editor of his work. Reading just the final text, you'd not necessarily imagine that the story went through all the plans and drafts which have been carefully collected and ordered in History Of Middle Earth. It's hard, even with the depth of affectionate scrutiny the text gets here, to find many continuity errors or plot holes.

One can sometimes find what I suggest we call "fossils". By fossils, I mean the preserved remains of an idea from an earlier draft. Often something that makes sense, or nearly makes sense in the final version, but makes more sense viewed as a fossil.

Some examples might help:
When Aragorn meets the hobbits at Bree, he is trying to persuade them that they need his help against the Black Riders. He says:



Quote
Do you wish them to find you? They are terrible!’
The hobbits looked at him, and saw with surprise that his face was drawn as if with pain, and his hands clenched the arms of his chair. The room was very quiet and still, and the light seemed to have grown dim. For a while he sat with unseeing eyes as if walking in distant memory or listening to sounds in the Night far away.
‘There!’ he cried after a moment, drawing his hand across his brow. ‘Perhaps I know more about these pursuers than you do.- LotR I.10

The strong inference is that Aragorn is remembering something horrible and Black-Rider -related. What could that be?
Some of us discussed various possibilities last October, (http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=648455#648455 ) but my favourite, and what makes me declare this a fossil find is that Aragorn was, in earlier drafts, written as a hobbit: a hobbit who was called Trotter because of his wooden shoes. The shoes, in turn, were something he wore because of injuries to his feet when he was captured and tortured in Mordor. It's a fossil (if it is a fossil) and not a plot-hole because the passage reads well in the published work: the reader not knowing about Trotter simply infers its about some other adventure Strider might have had (see that reference for several ideas!)

Strider's decision to go to Weathertop is another fossil, I think. It doesn't seem a very convincing plan to me, for reasons some of us discussed earlier (http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=658724#658724). It made a lot more sense in earlier drafts when Gandalf knew more of the hobbits' movements, or had left a supply cache there (http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=706843#706843).

Does anyone else like the idea of "fossils" and want to show some exhibits?

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Sep 17 2014, 4:21pm

Post #2 of 14 (2209 views)
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Along those same lines: [In reply to] Can't Post

Trotter was actually captured in Moria before he was tortured: From "Treason of Isengard" p. 10: "He has previously been to Mordor and been tormented (caught in Moria)."

So in FotR we have "'I too once passed the Dimrill Gate," Aragorn said quietly, 'but though I also came out again, the memory is very evil. I do not wish to enter Moria a second time.'"


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Sep 17 2014, 4:48pm

Post #3 of 14 (2206 views)
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Candles. [In reply to] Can't Post

I've always wondered if this was something that slipped through from an earlier version, though it's not that interesting. When Butterbur first shows the hobbits to their parlor room, Nob brings candles. Then after the song in the common room, they return to their parlor room, (at the beginning of the Strider chapter) and Butterbur arrives with candles. Maybe they needed more candles for some reason, but it seems odd to me. LIke what we call in my writers' group a "choregraphy error".


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Cillendor
Lorien


Sep 17 2014, 7:35pm

Post #4 of 14 (2200 views)
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I think The Hobbit is full of them. [In reply to] Can't Post

The whole character of the Elvenking appears to be an earlier version of Elu Thingol, but while the Dwarves stole the Nauglamír, they didn't kill him. It appears to be after the last battle because there is strong evidence linking the Arkenstone with the Silmaril (including the name itself, which means "holy stone"). The Hobbit is a First Age story before Tolkien invented multiple ages.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Sep 17 2014, 7:51pm

Post #5 of 14 (2178 views)
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Maybe we could forgive [In reply to] Can't Post

harried old Barliman. It was a busy night and after all Gandalf tells us in his letter that Barley had a memory “like a lumber-room”.Smile

"Excuse me, excuse me. What does God need with a Starship?
James T. Kirk --S.T. V


dreamflower
Lorien

Sep 19 2014, 10:19pm

Post #6 of 14 (2152 views)
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What's even more interesting is where he could have gone [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Fredegar Bolger and Folco Boffin were "fossil" characters. Originally Fatty Bolger was to play a much larger role--even being hauled off by Gandalf as a sort of decoy. And at one point, Pippin was to have been a Boffin instead of a Took!

Fredegar found another heroic role as the leader of the Shire's homegrown rebellion, but poor Folco went home for lunch and was never heard from again. I've often thought that perhaps Folco was originally supposed to hold the rebel role if Fatty had been spirited off to the Quest with the others or whatever other fate had been planned for him. Evidence that he might have been slated for a larger role can be found in the fact that the Boffins (along with the Bolgers) did receive their OWN Family Tree, and the "Boffins of Yale" were supposed to be a prominent family.

(However, in my headcanon, Folco did not survive the occupations by the Ruffians.)

Farmer Maggot was quite a different character in early drafts as well! In early drafts, he was depicted as almost an antagonist--he held a grudge against the Bagginses, and had to be tricked by Frodo and his friends by means of the Ring (which was more innocuous than it later became). I'm wondering if his treatment of young Frodo and the fierceness of his dogs was a holdover from his previous treatment as a character.


dreamflower
Lorien

Sep 19 2014, 10:28pm

Post #7 of 14 (2138 views)
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You are quite likely right [In reply to] Can't Post

In The History of the Hobbit editor Rateliffe in his footnotes makes an excellent case for the Elven-king originally being meant to be Thingol.

I'm just glad that Gandalf did not end up named Bladorthin.


dreamflower
Lorien

Sep 19 2014, 10:32pm

Post #8 of 14 (2125 views)
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Quite likely [In reply to] Can't Post

But a good story-internal excuse...er, explanation...is that Barliman needed some reason to go to the hobbit's room with the letter.Wink


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Sep 19 2014, 10:34pm

Post #9 of 14 (2144 views)
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Even Bilbo's fight with the spiders [In reply to] Can't Post

is reminiscent of Beren's fight with the spiders.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Sep 20 2014, 3:38am

Post #10 of 14 (2114 views)
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Great point about Farmer Maggot. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



sador
Half-elven


Sep 22 2014, 7:56am

Post #11 of 14 (2103 views)
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The Horn of Buckland [In reply to] Can't Post

A really uplifting symbol, and one which Shippey even uses as a parable to the whole book; but it makes no real sense in context, and according to a later writing (one of the Letters? I don't remember) soon dwindled to a mere ceremonial plaything. But does it make sense in context?
Fatty shouldn't have known the Buckland horn-call, and much less the townfolk of Bywater; and what were the chances of the folk at the next cottage having a horn at home just in case?

Originally, it was Gandalf who got to Crickhollow first, and met Fatty there (another fossil of this also remains when the Riders enter the garden and wait for a few hours before attacking just before dawn); it was he who blew the horn, and when the Riders left he fled on horseback with Fatty.
Later, Tolkien worked the horn-theme into two dramatic confrontations: against the Balrog (which the horn checks for a moment, but Gandalf's words achieve more), and the Witch-king (in which Gandalf's words are laughed away, but the horns are more effective).



Harold.of.Whoa
Rivendell


Sep 23 2014, 2:03am

Post #12 of 14 (2079 views)
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That leads into a question I have wanted to ask [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Originally, it was Gandalf who got to Crickhollow first, and met Fatty there (another fossil of this also remains when the Riders enter the garden and wait for a few hours before attacking just before dawn); it was he who blew the horn, and when the Riders left he fled on horseback with Fatty.
Later, Tolkien worked the horn-theme into two dramatic confrontations: against the Balrog (which the horn checks for a moment, but Gandalf's words achieve more), and the Witch-king (in which Gandalf's words are laughed away, but the horns are more effective).


It intrigues me that the confrontation between Gandalf and the Witch King is such a precise echo of the Crickhollow/Horn-call of Buckland scene.

1) Hiding/defending behind a door
2) Terrifying Nazgul speaking words of terror on the other side
3) Blows resulting in a riven door
4) The cock crowing
5) The blowing of horns ending the intrusion of the Nazgul

I did not know the early version of Crickhollow had Gandalf there. That makes it even more intriguing.


squire
Half-elven


Sep 23 2014, 2:30am

Post #13 of 14 (2083 views)
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Great observation, but what is the question? [In reply to] Can't Post

The parallels are not exact - that's not Tolkien's style - but they are so close as to preclude coincidence, I think.



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Harold.of.Whoa
Rivendell


Sep 23 2014, 3:00am

Post #14 of 14 (2192 views)
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Dang! [In reply to] Can't Post

I wrote the subject line before I composed my post, then the composition led me away from asking anything...but I forgot about the subject line.

I suppose the obvious questions is: do you draw from this pairing some particular symbolism that can be summarized in a few simple ideas? And wrapped up with a bow? LOL!

I expect not - not Tolkien's style - but it doesn't hurt to ask.

And, on a separate note, are these horns (Buckland) actually heard in Bree, by Frodo or anyone else?

 
 

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