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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Moor Gnidaer :
Children of Hurin Question

Cari
Eerb

Sep 14 2014, 2:34pm

Post #1 of 14 (1118 views)
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Children of Hurin Question Can't Post

In the Children of Hurin it says:

"And those that saw this marvelled, for it was a sign that Thingol took Turin as his foster-son; and that was not at the time done by kings, nor ever again by Elf-lord to a Man."

My question is: Wasn't Aragorn raised as a foster-son to Elrond as well, making that quote incorrect?"


Otaku-sempai
Latrommi


Sep 14 2014, 2:47pm

Post #2 of 14 (854 views)
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That was later... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In the Children of Hurin it says:

"And those that saw this marvelled, for it was a sign that Thingol took Turin as his foster-son; and that was not at the time done by kings, nor ever again by Elf-lord to a Man."

My question is: Wasn't Aragorn raised as a foster-son to Elrond as well, making that quote incorrect?"



No, because the practice of Elrond fostering the sons of Dunedain chieftains did not begin until much later. Remember, the reference is to events of the First Age.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Cari
Eerb

Sep 14 2014, 2:50pm

Post #3 of 14 (847 views)
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Thank You [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you!

I had thought it was referring to the entire future of Middle-earth not just the First Age.


CuriousG
Nevle-flah


Sep 14 2014, 2:54pm

Post #4 of 14 (844 views)
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Good catch [In reply to] Can't Post

I think "nor ever again by Elf-lord to a Man" is in contradiction to Elrond and Aragorn since it's a blanket statement about the future. Making singular statements is a dangerous thing for writers to do. I would never do that myself, ever.



Otaku-sempai
Latrommi


Sep 14 2014, 2:55pm

Post #5 of 14 (853 views)
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"...nor ever again by Elf-lord to a Man." [In reply to] Can't Post

Let's give Elrond a pass since he is Half-elven and not a full Elf-lord.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


DaughterofLaketown
Rodnog


Sep 14 2014, 10:42pm

Post #6 of 14 (804 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

It is better to leave those things open.




"And so they stood on the walls of the city of Gondor, and a great wind rose and blew, and their hair, raven and golden, streamed out mingling in the air."


cats16
Nevle-flah


Sep 15 2014, 12:08am

Post #7 of 14 (809 views)
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I suppose... [In reply to] Can't Post

I could excuse it because of the earlier words, "that was not at that time done by kings." So, perhaps the narrator is situated within this general pre-Fall of Numenor (that's being generous, obviously; probably more contemporary to Turin) period, in which acts like that were unheard of.

I agree that those kinds of blanket statements aren't ideal. I wonder if the 'different' narrators in Tolkien's works might explain some of that. Or not. Cool

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Come party right now in the Hobbit movie forum, as we celebrate one year's worth of CHOW discussion of the films. Hope to see you there!



Cillendor
Neirol


Sep 15 2014, 2:53pm

Post #8 of 14 (770 views)
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I think this is just from the perspective of the narrator. [In reply to] Can't Post

In certain places in the Old Testament (I think especially in Genesis), the author refers to the common name of something in his day, or tells how something has continued up to the present time, or something along those lines. It doesn't mean that it carries through to modern times, or even to the New Testament "only" ~2,000 years later. Just from the perspective of the writer, that is how it is.

So here, whoever wrote down this story (probably either someone in Doriath or the encampment at Sirion) was speaking from his own experience. In all the years that Elves and Men had mixed in Beleriand, there had never been an Elf Lord to raise a Manchild as a foster-son.

Also with Elrond, not only was he Half-elven, but the Dúnedain princes he fostered were all descendents of his brother Elros. I highly doubt that he'd foster any orphan off the street (though he might shelter them as a guest). But Aragorn and the others in his line that Elrond raised were all his kin, many generations removed.


PhantomS
NahoR


Sep 20 2014, 7:30pm

Post #9 of 14 (733 views)
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Never hath an Elvenlord made such great pancakes, either.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Thingol adopting Turin is quite different from Elrond fostering Aragorn; Thingol adopted a homeless, (almost) kinless boy who he had no blood relations with him, in a way that no Elf has ever done for a human. Turin is essentially a stranger to him, which makes Thingol's decisions a bit odd to the eye of the narrator.

That same 'narrator' is also the one who says that the Chieftains of the Dunedain were raised in the House of Elrond their kinsman and retired there in their old age. Aragorn is one of a long line of 40 (including Valandil and the heirs of Arnor/Arthedain) Chieftains who have spent their youth at Elrond's place- the only difference is that he was continually raised into adulthood by Elrond and did not go into the world at large until he was in his twenties. Elrond did not foster him as much as he did train him and teach him- he has been ever present in the lives of Aragorn's ancestors Thingol on the other hand made a prince of Turin, but didn't really figure the lad out or train him properly until it was too late.

So Aragorn doesn't really count as a 'foster son' as he is essentially Elrond's grand (multiple) nephew and is raised with his kinsmen. And what's more, he is more llike Elrond than Turin was like Thingol.


ltnjmy
Llednevir


Sep 22 2014, 3:50pm

Post #10 of 14 (711 views)
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nice analysis PhantomS. [In reply to] Can't Post

Cool.Smile


Hamfast Gamgee
Aessere Lot

Sep 23 2014, 11:24pm

Post #11 of 14 (694 views)
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Elrond wasn't an Elf-lord [In reply to] Can't Post

He was merely Master Elrond of the lonely house. It's a bit debatable if he even counted as one of the Wise!


HeWhoArisesinMight
Llednevir


Sep 24 2014, 1:42am

Post #12 of 14 (693 views)
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How would you define the "wise" [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting that you say it is "debatable" whether Elrond is counted among the wise. I always considered him one of the "Wise," however, I don't know whether there is some official criteria to enter this august group, if any.


Otaku-sempai
Latrommi


Sep 24 2014, 3:15pm

Post #13 of 14 (693 views)
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Elrond Half-elven [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
He was merely Master Elrond of the lonely house. It's a bit debatable if he even counted as one of the Wise!



Once Elrond chose the path of Immortality he was for all practical purposes an Elf-lord. He founded Imladris and was deep in the Councils of the Wise, especially the White Council. Elrond was most certainly counted as one of the Wise.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Darkstone
Latrommi


Sep 24 2014, 3:36pm

Post #14 of 14 (801 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

"So it is that Lúthien Tinúviel alone of the Elf-kindred has died indeed and left the world, and they have lost her whom they most loved. But from her the lineage of the Elf-lords of old descended among Men. There live still those of whom Lúthien was the foremother, and it is said that her line shall never fail. Elrond of Rivendell is of that Kin."
-"A Knife in the Dark", LOTR

Thus Elrond is an Elf-lord.


Wizard is a translation of Quenya istar (Sindarin ithron): one of the members of an "order" (as they call it), claiming to possess, and exhibiting, eminent knowledge of the history and nature of the World. The translation (through suitable in its relation to "wise" and other ancient words of knowing, similar to that of istar in Quenya) is not perhaps happy, since Heren Istarion or "Order of Wizards" was quite distinct from "wizards" and "magicians" of later legend; they belonged solely to the Third Age and then departed, and none save maybe Elrond, Círdan and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came.
-"The Istari", Unfinished Tales

"He [Elrond] was as noble and fair as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."
-"A Short Rest", The Hobbit

Thus Elrond is of the Wise.

******************************************
"My friend,” said Gandalf, “you had horses, and deeds of arms, and the free fields; but she, born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the match of yours. Yet she was doomed to wait upon an old man, whom she loved as a father, and watch him falling into a mean dishonoured dotage; and her part seemed to her more ignoble than that of the staff he leaned on.
“Think you that Wormtongue had poison only for Théoden's ears? ‘Dotard! What is the house of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor among their dogs?’ Have you not heard those words before? Saruman spoke them, the teacher of Wormtongue. Though I do not doubt that Wormtongue at home wrapped their meaning in terms more cunning. My lord, if your sister's love for you, and her will still bent to her duty, had not restrained her lips; you might have heard even such things as these escape them. But who knows what she spoke to the darkness, alone, in the bitter watches of the night, when all her life seemed shrinking, and the walls of her bower closing in about her, a hutch to trammel some wild thing in?”

“I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
And I’ll be on my way!

“If a land don't understand you,
No matter how many regimes,
Saddle up, do not wait,
Don’t waste time at the weapontake.
Muster out of that roll call.
Ride Windfola out to your dreams!

“If the house of Eorl is nothing more,
Than a barn where brigands drink,
Their brats and dogs roll on the floor,
Then you know what the door is for,
Muster out of that roll call,
Wash Rohan into the sink!

“I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
I'm gonna wash Rohan right outa my hair,
And I’ll be on my way!"

-Rodgers and Hammerstein, The Lord of the Rings

 
 

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