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irodino
Bree
Sep 8 2014, 5:51pm
Post #1 of 18
(1684 views)
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Why didn't Sauron take Narya
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.. from Gandalf after defeating him in Dol Guldur? Wasn't he looking to gather the Great Rings as well?
It's a pretty big plot hole caused by one of the unnecessary movie events that begs for explanation. But I can't really explain this one away easily unlike the countless other problematic things in the movies.
It would be a stretch to imagine that Sauron did in fact take Narya, increasing Gandalf's despair in captivity, but since Sauron didn't have physical form yet, he would have given the ring to Azog (?), and the ring would be recovered after the BotFA from Azog's dead body. But of course it's a stretch and I wish I didn't have to invent this just to fill needless plot holes :/
"The past tempts us, the present confuses us, and the future frightens us. And our lives slip away, moment by moment, lost in that terrible in-between."
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Darkstone
Immortal
Sep 8 2014, 6:07pm
Post #2 of 18
(1128 views)
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I was wondering about the exact same plot hole...
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...when Saruman captured Gandalf at Isengard.
Maybe it's invisible to Maiar?
******************************************
For a while the three companions remained silent, gazing after him. Then Aragorn spoke. "They will look for him from the White Tower," he said, "but he will not return from mountain or from sea." Then slowly he began to sing:
"Boromir is dead
Poor Boromir is dead
All gather round his canoe now and cry
He had a heart of gold
And he wasn't very old
Oh why did such a feller have to die?"
Then Legolas sang:
"Boromir is dead
Poor Boromir is dead
He's lookin' oh so purty and so nice
He looks like he's asleep
It's a shame that he won't keep
But the sun’s out and we're runnin' out a' ice."
Then Aragorn sang again:
"Boromir is dead
Poor Boromir is dead
From Minas Tirith comes a weepin' sound
The East Wind for a spell
Will now blow a different smell
Til Boromir is underneath the ground."
So they ended. Then they turned their boat and drove it with all the speed they could against the stream back to Parth Galen.
-Rodgers and Hammerstein, The Lord of the Rings
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 8 2014, 6:07pm
Post #3 of 18
(1131 views)
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The Three Elven Rings were kept hidden from Sauron; he did not know who possessed them. Gandalf might reasonably be able to mask Narya's presence from Sauron, especially if he is not wearing it.
If Saruman knew that Gandalf possessed the Ring of Fire, he might have allowed Gandalf to keep it in the hope that he could still break the Wizard's spirit and bind him to himself.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 8 2014, 6:18pm)
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dormouse
Half-elven
Sep 8 2014, 6:14pm
Post #4 of 18
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Because he didn't know Gandalf had Narya...
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Remember the Three have always been hidden:
The Three, fairest of all, the Elf-lords hid from him, and his hand never touched them or sullied them. [Gandalf, "The Shadow of the Past"]
And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!. . . . This is Nenya, the Ring of Adamant, and I am its keeper. He suspects, but he does not know - not yet. Do you see now how your coming if to us the footstep of Doom? For if you fail, then we are laid bare to the Enemy. [Galadriel, "The Mirror of Galadriel]
So Sauron can't perceive the Three and won't be able to until he has the One. That ring calls to him because he put his own power into it. The Three don't because he didn't - their magic actually hides them from him. It is easy - dead easy. This isn't a plot hole because Tolkien already covered it.
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Name
Rohan
Sep 8 2014, 6:46pm
Post #5 of 18
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Plus there's no reason for Sauron
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To suspect that Gandalf, one of the "lesser" wizards, would possess one of the *elven* rings. They were crafted before the Istari arrived in ME, and if anything, Sauron would think that Cirdan is in possession of it.
How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?
"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"
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Arannir
Valinor
Sep 8 2014, 7:02pm
Post #6 of 18
(1079 views)
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... through his "rebirth".
One certainly has to use some suspension of disbelief and explanations not really given by Tolkien.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Sep 8 2014, 8:18pm
Post #7 of 18
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I think it's invisible to everyone most of the time.
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Galadriel either showed hers to Frodo, or the fact that he was bearing the One enabled him to see it (I think the former). In any case, I don't think we're seeing any of the Elven Rings in the movies. As others have mentioned, they are being kept secret, so Sauron wouldn't have been aware of Narya.
Hard to say whether Saruman would have known. Interesting question.
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Sep 8 2014, 9:25pm
Post #8 of 18
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Bolding mine:
From Unfinished Tales: The Istari
"But Cirdan from their first meeting at the Grey Havens divined in him the greatest spirit and the wisest; and he welcomed him with reverence, and he gave to his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red.
'For,' said he, 'great labours and perils lie before you, and lest your task should prove too great and wearisome, take this Ring for your aid and comfort. It was entrusted to me only to keep secret, and here upon the West-shores it is idle; but I deem that in days ere long to come it should be in nobler hands than mine, that may wield it for the kindling of all hearts to courage.' And the Grey Messenger took the Ring, and kept it ever secret; yet the White Messenger (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this gift, and begrudged it, and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore to the Grey, which afterwards became manifest.
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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Arannir
Valinor
Sep 8 2014, 9:36pm
Post #9 of 18
(978 views)
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On a totally different note...
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... this quote is also interesting for the discussion about how "evil" and ill-willing Saruman is or should be at the time of TH .
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Sep 8 2014, 9:50pm
Post #10 of 18
(987 views)
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The cinematic problem has always been......
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...Gandalf obviously respects and trusts Saruman completely at the start of the FOTR film. So is Gandalf a fool? How could he not know that Saruman had turned to evil until the very moment when Saruman reveals himself by slamming the doors shut in Orthanc? Gandalf certainly seems totally taken aback.
******************************************
For a while the three companions remained silent, gazing after him. Then Aragorn spoke. "They will look for him from the White Tower," he said, "but he will not return from mountain or from sea." Then slowly he began to sing:
"Boromir is dead
Poor Boromir is dead
All gather round his canoe now and cry
He had a heart of gold
And he wasn't very old
Oh why did such a feller have to die?"
Then Legolas sang:
"Boromir is dead
Poor Boromir is dead
He's lookin' oh so purty and so nice
He looks like he's asleep
It's a shame that he won't keep
But the sun’s out and we're runnin' out a' ice."
Then Aragorn sang again:
"Boromir is dead
Poor Boromir is dead
From Minas Tirith comes a weepin' sound
The East Wind for a spell
Will now blow a different smell
Til Boromir is underneath the ground."
So they ended. Then they turned their boat and drove it with all the speed they could against the stream back to Parth Galen.
-Rodgers and Hammerstein, The Lord of the Rings
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Sep 8 2014, 9:54pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Sep 8 2014, 9:57pm
Post #11 of 18
(952 views)
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Well I agree that Gandalf shouldn't
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See too much suspicious Saruman activity, but it wouldn't be an issue for the audience to see some.
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Arannir
Valinor
Sep 8 2014, 11:06pm
Post #13 of 18
(923 views)
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... one can still totally trust a person without particularly liking them. Or trust them in their view on one affair (like the overall well-being of the world) but distrust or at least dislike their take on other matters going on in the world (such as ring-lore, power in general, etc.).
So I see no big issue with the way Saruman was shown in AUJ thus far. Especially as Elrond seems to support Saruman to some extent I always got the impression this was the argument of people who are - on the fundamental issue - on the same side.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Sep 9 2014, 7:19am
Post #14 of 18
(833 views)
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It's also an essential difference between good and evil, isn't it....
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... that a good character - in this case Gandalf - will tend to trust even through doubt, until he has positive proof of betrayal, while a bad one will take full advantage of that. Good is much easier to deceive than evil.
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xxxyyy
Rohan
Sep 9 2014, 10:59am
Post #15 of 18
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Never heard anywhere in the movies.
Maybe Galadriel or Elrond will give it to him form some reason...
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cats16
Half-elven
Sep 9 2014, 11:43am
Post #16 of 18
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Círdan the Shipwright--omitted from the films (unless you count the very brief cameos at the beginning and end)--gave him the ring at the Grey Havens, long before the events of The Hobbit.
It isn't mentioned in the films explicitly, but the ring is visible on Gandalf's finger as he says farewell to the hobbits at the Havens in ROTK.
Come party next week in the Hobbit movie forum, as we celebrate one year's worth of CHOW discussion of the films. Hope to see you there!
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Sep 9 2014, 6:11pm
Post #17 of 18
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That glimpse was a wonderful geeky treat...
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...for all those of us who knew what it was. There were a lot of little moments like that in LotR, which helped many of us overlook the less-welcome changes.
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Sep 9 2014, 6:11pm)
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xxxyyy
Rohan
Sep 9 2014, 11:07pm
Post #18 of 18
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Exactly. What we know is that Gandalf has it at the Grey Havens at the end of ROTK, nothing else.
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We don't know, in the movies, when / where / from whom he got it.
I WISH we could discuss about this "plot hole", but we can't because we, sadly, know nothing about the Rings of The Lord of the Rings.
I'm wondering, considering they've included the Sevens so heavily, if they are goning to fix this atrocious absence.
PS sorry about that "has" in the previous thread... I just can't stand the look of it...
(This post was edited by xxxyyy on Sep 9 2014, 11:09pm)
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