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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 5 2014, 3:10pm
Post #26 of 49
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Today in Middle-earth
September 5, 2941 (S.R. 1401)
1. Gandalf at the White Council.
(not from the appendices)
... "In the late summer... ...Gandalf had at last prevailed upon Saruman and the White Council to attack Dol Guldur, and Sauron retreated and went to Mordor, there to be secure, as he thought, from all his enemies. So it was that when the War came at last the main assault was turned southwards..."
Did Gandalf need to return to Rivendell for the meeting of the White Council? Or did the Council have a secret, preliminary meeting at the time that Thorin & Company were in Rivendell, agreeing to reconvene elsewhere (perhaps Lothlorien) to muster for the actual attack?
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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grammaboodawg
Immortal
Sep 6 2014, 2:22am
Post #27 of 49
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And I wondered... I know it's a long shot... but how about the possibility they didn't need much more than thoughts? We saw a hint of it (albeit in film) when Galadriel spoke with Gandalf outside Mirkwood.
Soon Celeborn and Galadriel and their folk would turn eastward, and so pass by the Redhorn Gate and down the Dimrill Stair to the Silverlode and to their own country. They had journeyed thus far by the west-ways, for they had much to speak of with Elrond and with Gandalf, and here they lingered still in converse with their friends. Often long after the hobbits were wrapped in sleep they would sit together under the stars, recalling the ages that were gone and all their joys and labours in the world, or holding council, concerning the days to come. If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with their mouth, looking from mind to mind and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro.
6th draft of TH:AUJ Geeky Observation List - November 28, 2013
4th draft of TH:DOS Geeky Observation List - May 15, 2014
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
I'm SO HAPPY these new films take me back to that magical world!!
TIME Google Calendar
TORn's Geeky Observations Lists for LotR and The Hobbit
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grammaboodawg
Immortal
Sep 6 2014, 11:04am
Post #28 of 49
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Let's catch up and see what everyone is doing Today in Middle-earth.
September 6, 2941 (S.R. 1341)
1. Bilbo learns how to make his way through Thranduil's Caverns
(from Karen Wynn Fonstad, The Atlas of Middle-earth)
..."Eventually... ...by watching and following the guards and taking what chances he could, he managed to find out where each dwarf was kept. He found all their twelve cells in different parts of the palace, and after a time he got to know his way about very well."
September 6, 3018 (S.R. 1418)
1. Frodo prepares to leave Bag End.
(not from the appendices)
[Frodo's plans to move to his little house at Crickhollow in the country beyond Bucklebury are well underway.]
..."Frodo was also growing increasingly anxious about the delay of Gandalf's return. Bilbo's birthday, the chosen day of Frodo's departure, was fast approaching and there was still no word from the wizard."
September 6, 3019 (S.R. 1419)
1. They (the Travellers) halt in the sight of the Mountain of Moria.
(from the appendices)
..."They were near to the Gates of Moria... ...Here now for seven days they tarried, for the time was at hand for another parting which they were loth to make. Soon Celeborn and Galadriel and their folk would turn eastward, and so pass by the Redhorn Gate and down the Dimrill Stair to the Silverlode and to their own country."
September 6, 3020 (S.R. 1420)
1. Summer comes to an end in the Shire.
(not from the appendices)
..."In the Southfarthing the vines were laden, and the yield of 'leaf' was astonishing; and everywhere there was so much corn that at Harvest every barn was stuffed."
September 6, 3021 (S.R. 1421)
1. Frodo seems to become more content.
(not from the appendices-no text)...Sam 's mind was eased and his concern for Frodo lessened as it seemed his master was more content than he'd been in many months. The restless nights were fewer now, and Frodo seemed to find great satisfaction in the progress he was making with his book. There were picnics with Sam, Rosie and little Elanor under the mallorn tree, peaceful hikes to the far ends of the Shire, and even a long visit with old Farmer Maggot. Though once he did tell Sam he'd be away for a fortnight and was last seen near Crickhollow riding toward the old High Hay hedges.
6th draft of TH:AUJ Geeky Observation List - November 28, 2013
4th draft of TH:DOS Geeky Observation List - May 15, 2014
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
I'm SO HAPPY these new films take me back to that magical world!!
TIME Google Calendar
TORn's Geeky Observations Lists for LotR and The Hobbit
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 6 2014, 12:46pm
Post #29 of 49
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And I wondered... I know it's a long shot... but how about the possibility they didn't need much more than thoughts? We saw a hint of it (albeit in film) when Galadriel spoke with Gandalf outside Mirkwood.
Yes, but it is unclear if the Wise could communicate mind-to-mind over long distances. Peter Jackson assumes that they could, but what was Tolkien's intent?
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Darkstone
Immortal
Sep 6 2014, 6:20pm
Post #30 of 49
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...when they were far away, and ever they heard that soft voice whispering and urging them.
-The Voice of Saruman
******************************************
For a while the three companions remained silent, gazing after him. Then Aragorn spoke. "They will look for him from the White Tower," he said, "but he will not return from mountain or from sea." Then slowly he began to sing:
"Boromir is dead
Poor Boromir is dead
All gather round his canoe now and cry
He had a heart of gold
And he wasn't very old
Oh why did such a feller have to die?"
Then Legolas sang:
"Boromir is dead
Poor Boromir is dead
He's lookin' oh so purty and so nice
He looks like he's asleep
It's a shame that he won't keep
But the sun’s out and we're runnin' out a' ice."
Then Aragorn sang again:
"Boromir is dead
Poor Boromir is dead
From Minas Tirith comes a weepin' sound
The East Wind for a spell
Will now blow a different smell
Til Boromir is underneath the ground."
So they ended. Then they turned their boat and drove it with all the speed they could against the stream back to Parth Galen.
-Rodgers and Hammerstein, The Lord of the Rings
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 6 2014, 8:00pm
Post #31 of 49
(303 views)
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...when they were far away, and ever they heard that soft voice whispering and urging them.
-The Voice of Saruman
Or was Saruman's influence only lingering in their minds? He might not have been communicating directly with them.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Darkstone
Immortal
Sep 7 2014, 4:41am
Post #32 of 49
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One can consider Tolkien's account ambiguous. Thus like with the existence of Balrog wings, the color of Legolas' hair, and the shape of Elven ears Jackson is free to choose either way.
No foul.
******************************************
For a while the three companions remained silent, gazing after him. Then Aragorn spoke. "They will look for him from the White Tower," he said, "but he will not return from mountain or from sea." Then slowly he began to sing:
"Boromir is dead
Poor Boromir is dead
All gather round his canoe now and cry
He had a heart of gold
And he wasn't very old
Oh why did such a feller have to die?"
Then Legolas sang:
"Boromir is dead
Poor Boromir is dead
He's lookin' oh so purty and so nice
He looks like he's asleep
It's a shame that he won't keep
But the sun’s out and we're runnin' out a' ice."
Then Aragorn sang again:
"Boromir is dead
Poor Boromir is dead
From Minas Tirith comes a weepin' sound
The East Wind for a spell
Will now blow a different smell
Til Boromir is underneath the ground."
So they ended. Then they turned their boat and drove it with all the speed they could against the stream back to Parth Galen.
-Rodgers and Hammerstein, The Lord of the Rings
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grammaboodawg
Immortal
Sep 7 2014, 1:21pm
Post #33 of 49
(281 views)
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Today in Middle-earth
September 7, 2941 (S.R. 1341)
1. Bilbo finds Thorin's cell.
(from Karen Wynn Fonstad, The Atlas of Middle-earth)
..."What was his surprise one day to overhear some of the guards talking and to learn that there was another dwarf in prison too, in a specially deep dark place. He guessed at once... ...that that was Thorin; and after a while he found that his guess was right. At last after many difficulties he managed to find the place when no one was about, and to have a word with the chief of the dwarves.
...Thorin was too wretched to be angry any longer at his misfortunes, and was even beginning to think of telling the king all about his treasure and his quest... ...when he heard Bilbo's little voice at his keyhole. He could hardly believe his ears. Soon however he made up his mind that he could not be mistaken, and he came to the door and had a long whispered talk with the hobbit on the other side."
September 7, 3001 (S.R. 1401)
1. The Shire is visited by outsiders.
(not from the appendices)
..."Days passed and The Day drew nearer. An odd-looking waggon laden with odd-looking packages rolled into Hobbiton one evening and toiled up the Hill to Bag End. The startled hobbits peered out of lamplit doors to gape at it. It was driven by outlandish folk, singing strange songs: dwarves with long beards and deep hoods. A few of them remained at Bag End."
6th draft of TH:AUJ Geeky Observation List - November 28, 2013
4th draft of TH:DOS Geeky Observation List - May 15, 2014
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
I'm SO HAPPY these new films take me back to that magical world!!
TIME Google Calendar
TORn's Geeky Observations Lists for LotR and The Hobbit
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 7 2014, 2:28pm
Post #34 of 49
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I like the idea that some of Bilbo's old friends might have visited him in the Shire before the birthday party, without staying around for the festivities. They might have even mentioned Balin's expedition to him (without Bilbo thinking to remark on it to Frodo).
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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grammaboodawg
Immortal
Sep 7 2014, 2:32pm
Post #35 of 49
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That's an interesting "thought"
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and how much of their thoughts lingered in Saruman's mind? And how much did that influence his fall via paranoia or manipulating that contact? You know what they say about individuals who hear voices in their heads ;)
I like to think that the greats have an unlimited range or connection that is there when they call upon it. If time is not a factor for them, why would distance? It's the same thing, isn't it?
I also like to think that hobbity Ring-bearers also have a marginal connection. Like Frodo at the Mirror and Sam calling on his faith in Galadriel/Gandalf in Mordor after he wore the Ring. They came to his thoughts more and more... and gave him strength.
It's the ambiguous details that Professor Tolkien's stories give us that make it so easy to personally connect with his world. We get to fill those in with our own perception/engagement/interpretation/need.
6th draft of TH:AUJ Geeky Observation List - November 28, 2013
4th draft of TH:DOS Geeky Observation List - May 15, 2014
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
I'm SO HAPPY these new films take me back to that magical world!!
TIME Google Calendar
TORn's Geeky Observations Lists for LotR and The Hobbit
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Sep 7 2014, 2:55pm
Post #37 of 49
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In fact I’ll take it a bit further. I think it highly unlikely that some of the Dwarves did not visit Bilbo during the sixty years between the Unexpected Party and the Long-expected party.
And (if near to the LEP) I believe they certainly would have told Bilbo about Balin’s expedition as Balin was kindlier than the other Dwarves and he and Bilbo seemed to have a special connection.
"Excuse me, excuse me. What does God need with a Starship?
James T. Kirk --S.T. V
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Sep 7 2014, 3:00pm
Post #38 of 49
(266 views)
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Yes, good thinking Gramma - "Sneak Pop-ins" it is! //
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"Excuse me, excuse me. What does God need with a Starship?
James T. Kirk --S.T. V
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 7 2014, 3:08pm
Post #39 of 49
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Well, we know that Balin (with Gandalf) dropped in on Bilbo in TA 2949. And any of the Dwarves traveling between the Blue Mountains and Erebor would be passing through the Shire on their way. However, I was specifically thinking of the Dwarves delivering party supplies for Bilbo's eleventy-first birthday. I'm sure that some of his old companions were among the visitors.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 7 2014, 3:10pm)
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Sep 7 2014, 5:58pm
Post #40 of 49
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Right, there were likely some Dwarves at the Long-expected Party
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“When the old man, helped by Bilbo and some dwarves, had finished unloading…”
Would the Dwarves leave before the Party? Don’t see why as they must have been known to be in the vicinity by all the town gossips and gawkers; which, of course, puts a stopper on gramma and my thought that they would “slip in and out of Bag End for a visit”. And many of Bilbo’s old friends may likely be among the visitors. (Probably with the exception of Bombur, who by this time had put on so much weight that it took six young Dwarves to carry him. Quite a fat trek from Erebor, eh?) 
"Excuse me, excuse me. What does God need with a Starship?
James T. Kirk --S.T. V
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 7 2014, 7:17pm
Post #41 of 49
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Did the Dwarves stay for the party?
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Tolkien neglects to mention any Dwarves at Bilbo's birthday party. I'm sure that he would have been glad to put any of them up at Bag End, but none seem to have been staying there--at least not as of September 22. Perhaps at the Green Dragon Inn?
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Sep 7 2014, 8:42pm
Post #42 of 49
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neglect to say whether the Dwarves stayed for the Party. But can we not assume that Dwarves DID stay with Bilbo on occasion:
-the miller at the Ivy Bush:
”And look at the outlandish folk that visit him: dwarves coming at night, and that old wandering conjuror, Gandalf…”
and a waggon
…was driven by outlandish folk,…dwarves with long beards and deep hoods. A few of these remained at Bag End.
And the “unloading” quote does seem to indicate that they (Dwarves) were probably/possibly staying with Bilbo as they were apparently quite handy to help with the unloading. Also using the same logic (and neglect by Tolkien) why would some of the Dwarves NOT be staying there on the 22nd?
“Well, we’ve helped with the cart unloading and now we’ll be off to Erebor.
Heigh-ho, heigh-ho, it’s back to work we go.” 
"Excuse me, excuse me. What does God need with a Starship?
James T. Kirk --S.T. V
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 8 2014, 12:13am
Post #43 of 49
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But can we not assume that Dwarves DID stay with Bilbo on occasion
I don't doubt that at all. Just not necessarily in this specific instance.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Sep 8 2014, 4:44am
Post #44 of 49
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Bilbo chose his favourite stick from the stand; then he whistled. Three dwarves came out of different rooms where they had been busy.
What Fun! What fun to be off again, off on the Road with dwarves!
I wonder where these little fellers were staying and where they were hiding during the Long-expected Party?
"Excuse me, excuse me. What does God need with a Starship?
James T. Kirk --S.T. V
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grammaboodawg
Immortal
Sep 8 2014, 9:58am
Post #45 of 49
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Today in Middle-earth
September 8, 2941 (S.R. 1341)
1. The White Council meets.
(not from the appendices-determined from text)
..."...ever the shadow in Mirkwood grew deeper, and to Dol Guldur evil things repaired out of all the dark places of the world... ...united again under one will, and their malice was directed against the Elves and the survivors of Númenor. Therefore at last the Council was again summoned and the lore of the Rings was much debated; but Mithrandir spoke to the Council, saying:
...'It is not needed that the Ring should be found, for while it abides on earth and is not unmade, still the power that it holds will live, and Sauron will grow and have hope. The might of the Elves and the Elf-friends is less now than of old. Soon he will be too strong... ...even without the Great Ring; for he rules the Nine, and of the Seven he has recovered three. We must strike.'"
2. Saruman agrees to an attack on Dol Guldur.
(not from the appendices-determined from text)
..."To this Curunír now assented, desiring that Sauron should be thrust from Dol Guldur, which was nigh to the River, and should have leisure to search there no longer. Therefore, for the last time, he aided the Council..."
6th draft of TH:AUJ Geeky Observation List - November 28, 2013
4th draft of TH:DOS Geeky Observation List - May 15, 2014
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
I'm SO HAPPY these new films take me back to that magical world!!
TIME Google Calendar
TORn's Geeky Observations Lists for LotR and The Hobbit
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 8 2014, 2:05pm
Post #46 of 49
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Wow! I had completely forgotten about that.
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Bilbo chose his favourite stick from the stand; then he whistled. Three dwarves came out of different rooms where they had been busy.
What Fun! What fun to be off again, off on the Road with dwarves! I wonder where these little fellers were staying and where they were hiding during the Long-expected Party?
It doesn't help that both Bakshi and Jackson had completely ignored that passage and had Bilbo start off alone. I suppose that those three dwarves were busy helping Bilbo with his preparations for leaving! Since they accompanied Bilbo when he left, they could have easily been staying at Bag End rather than an inn. Now, I wonder who they might have been? Surely Gimli and his father Gloin were not among them; Frodo would have recognized them at Rivendell where Tolkien indicates that he met the pair for the first time.
I notice that we also meet Merry for the first time in this chapter; he seems very mature for a young hobbit only in his nineteenth year.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 8 2014, 2:20pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 8 2014, 2:29pm
Post #48 of 49
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I'm also thinkin' some dwarves from Dain's group could have befriended Bilbo and they visited to keep that connection for Dain and for the original company. We know Balin came before, so maybe Nori, Dori, or Ori? Wouldn't it have been a hoot if Gimli came with Gloin once?
We could go nuts with this!
Ori and Oin had both accompanied Balin's expedition to Moria. None of those three could have visited Bilbo much later than TA 2988, much less been at his eleventy-first birthday party. By then Bombur was probably already too fat to make the trip!
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Sep 8 2014, 7:28pm
Post #49 of 49
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Of the original thirteen Dwarves, who could have been at Bag End during the Long-expected Party; and left with Bilbo after his great speech?
Let’s see:
Thorin, Fili, and Kili, were killed at the BOFA.
Balin, was killed in Khazad-dum.
Oin was taken by the Watcher in the water.
Ori fell in the Chamber of Mazarbul. 
Gloin, as Otaku noted would have been known by Frodo at Rivendell,
Dwalin, Bombur, Nori, Dori, Bifur, Bofur, all I believe settled in Erebor and could all be candidates? (With the most probable exception being Bombur. as it would have taken six young Dwarves to carry him over the water and across the mountains and through the woods. Whew!) 
If I’ve got my Dwarves right this leaves us with five possibles – Dwalin, Nori, Dori, Bifur and Bofur. Which three would it be? Or possibly none of the five, just some Dwarvish acquaintances, as I’m sure Bilbo would have many Dwarf friends and word would be passed among Dain’s folk (amongst others) of the welcome and the larders at Bag End.
"Excuse me, excuse me. What does God need with a Starship?
James T. Kirk --S.T. V
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TIME - September 6
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