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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Aug 29 2014, 7:06am
Post #26 of 31
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Tolkien states implicitly that Saruman did not dare to actually look into the Orthanc stone until about 3000 Third Age, when he became ensnared by Sauron. (Appendix B Tale of Years.) Minas Ithil fell in the Second Age, so the risks of using the stone were already known when Saruman moved in, so if Saruman's primary aim in securing Orthanc for himself had been to use the stone, why did he wait so long?
Then Saruman showed up, offered to help, and was given the key and implicitly the use of the stone. He was, clearly enough or so it seems to me, simply another agent of Gondor's ruling dynasty who took on the 3000-year-old responsibility of aiding the ruler of Gondor by monitoring and communicating events via the Stone of Orthanc .
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Aug 29 2014, 7:20am
Post #27 of 31
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Thanks for reminding us of that item, which is relevant. I guess it's possible that some Stewards didn't use it, either, and so the incentive or explicit authorization just wasn't there. It's pretty high-tech, after all. So both the Anor stone and this one were unused for many years. Since Saruman was as close as Middle Earth came to a scientist, he may have investigated, and become "ensnared". And this act, not being officially sanctioned by a Steward, was doubly dangerous, so all the Tolkien comments are consistent! Yay!
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squire
Half-elven
Aug 29 2014, 12:57pm
Post #28 of 31
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Thanks for reminding me to check the timeline!
Actually, the Tale of Years complicates the issue in the sense of rendering both Denethor's and Saruman's uses of their respective Stones quite extraordinary.
Minas Ithil fell around 2000, Third Age. Sauron was driven from Dol Guldur in 2063, and "hides in the East".
Sauron reoccupied Dol Guldur in 2460. Saruman took over Orthanc in 2759, and began fortifying it in 2953.
Saruman and Denethor both used their seeing-stones to defy Sauron's control of the network around 3000. Saruman fell into Sauron's orbit; Denethor barely survived, morally weakened.
OK. But as with so much of the history, it is written backwards from an author's 'presentist' approach; everything leads to the "Great Years", i.e. the War of the RIng. Why did Saruman wait for 250 years, if finding the stone was one of his unstated reasons for occupying Orthanc? Why was Denethor, one of many, many Stewards, all of the line of Mardil, all of unimpeachable Dunedain race and authority, and all of whom faced grave threats to the realm between 2000 and 3000 T.A., the first one to attempt to use the Tirith-stone in defiance of Sauron's possession of the Ithil-stone? It seems the reasons relate to the story as written, not as a lived history of ten centuries might suggest.
Now, perhaps Tolkien had the idea that Sauron was not in possession of the Ithil-stone during all that long period. Possibly. After all, the use of the Stones became dangerous only when Sauron first acquired and dominated the Ithil-stone. When was that, as far as we can tell?
Would the Nazgul who took Minas Ithil in 2000 have rushed their new Stone north to Mirkwood, for Sauron's use, as early as the 2000 period, or would they have held it in Morgul until Sauron arrived back in Mordor a few years later? Would it have gone to Mirkwood when Sauron reoccupied his northern domain around 2500, at the end of the so-called 'Watchful Peace'?
Possession may not be the only factor: how early in his recovery of self would Sauron have had the ability to use his Stone, to which he had no right? With that thought, would the Ithil-stone have been unused by Sauron until he returned to Mordor after being driven from Dol Guldur in 2941 (the year of The Hobbit's events), and declared himself openly with the eruption of Mt. Doom in 2954?
That last sequence seems to me what the timeline suggests, with its increasing drama of the imminent threat to Gondor posed by the revived Dark Power in Mordor, and the increasingly ominous behavior of Saruman regarding the One Ring. As the text you cited says, around 3000 Saruman "dares to use the palantir of Orthanc, but becomes ensnared by Sauron, who has the Ithil Stone."
But why are the earlier possibilities out of reach? "Dares to use" suggests that Saruman was aware of his peril, which means the Stewards would have been likewise. As you say, why did Saruman not try it earlier, when Sauron was weaker? Gandalf says that Denethor is unlike his predecessors and is nearly a true-blooded Numenorean (V.1 31), which helps explain why Denethor survived his encounters with Sauron, and is the basis for saying he had a 'right' to the stone which Saruman did not. But which of the Stewards before Denethor last used that stone, which was equally a right of all their line, and equally usable to all, including their designated subordinates (like Saruman) before Sauron intruded in the stones' visions and conversations?
Playing with these questions is fun, but the more I do so, the more I tend to retreat to one of my favorite metaphors: Tolkien was an expert at stagecraft. To step on to the stage and look behind the scenery is to both admire his detailed artistry, and to invite disappointment at the cheap carpentry and painted muslin that looks so magnificent at a distance, under the magic stagelights of story.
squire online:
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Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
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squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Aug 29 2014, 4:05pm
Post #29 of 31
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I'm not sure that it follows that just because Saruman was given Isengard, he was given authority to use the Stone
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Tolkien says:
There must have been a considerable lore concerning the palantíri preserved in Gondor by the Kings and Stewards, and handed down even after use was no longer made of them. These Stones were an inalienable gift to Elendil and his heirs, to whom alone they belonged by right; but this does not mean that they could only be used rightfully by one of these "heirs." They could be used lawfully by anyone authorized by either the "Heir of Anárion" or the "Heir of Isildur," that is, a lawful King of Gondor or Arnor. Actually they must normally have been used by such deputies. Each Stone had its own warden, one of whose duties was to "survey the Stone" at regular intervals, or when commanded, or in times of need. Other persons also were appointed to visit the Stones, and ministers of the Crown concerned with "intelligence" made regular and special inspections of them, reporting the information so gained to the King and Council, or to the King privately, as the matter demanded. In Gondor latterly, as the office of Steward rose in importance and became hereditary, providing as it were a permanent "understudy" to the King, and an immediate viceroy at need, the command and use of the Stones seems mainly to have been in the hands of the Stewards, and the traditions concerning their nature and use to have been guarded and transmitted in their House. Since the Stewardship had become hereditary from 1998 onwards, 15 so the authority to use, or again to depute the use, of the Stones, was lawfully transmitted in their line, and belonged therefore fully to Denethor.
That seems to me to imply that authority to use the Stones was given specifically to these deputies specifically appointed to do so. There is nothing that I am aware of that states that Saruman was given this specific authority, and the quote that I cited earlier clearly suggests that he was not. I don't really see it as a contradiction.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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a.s.
Valinor
Aug 29 2014, 4:29pm
Post #30 of 31
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magnificent at detail level, too, much of the time
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Playing with these questions is fun, but the more I do so, the more I tend to retreat to one of my favorite metaphors: Tolkien was an expert at stagecraft. To step on to the stage and look behind the scenery is to both admire his detailed artistry, and to invite disappointment at the cheap carpentry and painted muslin that looks so magnificent at a distance, under the magic stagelights of story.
And yet, Tolkien is really the only author I read who has created a world of which I even have the EXPECTATION of consistency to this extent. So, there's that.
All enduring stories probably look magnificent at a distance. Tolkien can make it look magnificent at detail level, at least much of the time. Pretty nifty, or so this fan thinks.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Aug 29 2014, 7:15pm
Post #31 of 31
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What did they know, and when did they know it?
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Would the Nazgul who took Minas Ithil in 2000 have rushed their new Stone north to Mirkwood, for Sauron's use, as early as the 2000 period, or would they have held it in Morgul until Sauron arrived back in Mordor a few years later? Would it have gone to Mirkwood when Sauron reoccupied his northern domain around 2500, at the end of the so-called 'Watchful Peace'? It's unclear whether the Nazgul knew what they had. It's also implied by some of the texts that the Stewards didn't know where the Ithil stone was, and may have assumed it was lost.
It's beginning to sound as though it took Sauron, regaining his power, to discover that the Ithil stone existed and was in the control of his team. Perhaps, as you suggest, this didn't happen until he returned to Mordor in 2941. As Sauron further regained power, Denethor was motivated to try the Anor stone around 3000 to see what he could learn. Although Saruman was clearly in dialog with Sauron, it seems likely that Denethor was being manipulated without his realization of Sauron's presence and influence in the network.
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Aug 29 2014, 7:17pm)
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