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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 25 2014, 4:40pm
Post #26 of 34
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I understand what you're saying.
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I agree to a certain extent, but the maps do provide some evidence for an approximate location for the High Fells. Granted, we have to play around a bit with borders; however, the maps being discussed don't provide the exact boundaries of Rhudaur. It is easy for us to say that Jackson's version might extend to the east side of the Misty Mountains, bordering the Vales of Anduin.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Aug 25 2014, 5:58pm
Post #27 of 34
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What makes this so darn confusing
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is that PJ does love to compress his space-time continuum.  If the High Fells scene had taken place after Rivendell we'd all have understand that the High Fells are in the traditional book location of Rhudaur, and thought the Pukel-man was an interesting and possibly baffling addition. But when/where it takes place in the films--after the company crosses the Misty Mountains and makes it clear over to Mirkwood, and then Gandalf's apparently miraculously quick arrival there, and the presence of the Druedain--has us second-guessing ourselves.
What we are really in need of is one of those cartoon map montages where we see little dotted lines crossing a map and jumping from site to site...
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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Noria
Gondor
Aug 25 2014, 6:03pm
Post #28 of 34
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QUESTION 3
"[Galadriel:] “...When Angmar fell, men of the North took his body and all that he possessed and sealed it within the High-Fells of Rhudaur. Deep within the rock they buried them, in a tomb so dark it would never come to light.”
[Elrond:] “This is not possible. A powerful spells lies upon those tombs; they cannot be opened.” .........AUJ
3.1 Where on Middle Earth are these tombs? Is it safe to say Rhudaur in the films is not where it is in the books? Does the setting or the way the intro is shot remind you of any LOTR setting?
--I find it impossible to say where these tombs are. We know that Book Rhudaur was in Eriador west of the Misty Mountains and if this scene had stayed in AUJ, that would have made sense even if “The High Fells” were made up. In DoS, it seems more logical that the High Fells are west of the Misty Mountains rather than have Gandalf and Radagast travelling back and forth over the mountains. Yet again, everyone but our heroes seems to be able to travel from point A to point B in about fifteen minutes. So I really don’t know. And I don’t care. PJ edits his films until the last minute and if he decided that Rhudaur was west of the Mountains to fit in with his plot in DoS, that’s where it is in the movieverse and it doesn't matter what the maps say. The geography of PJ’s Middle Earth has never made all that much sense, so I ignore it.
3.2 Looks like a tricky construction task. Why were they built in the way they were from a plot perspective and what message does it convey to the viewer as a set of architectural choices? Does the architecture remind you of anywhere else from the film Middle Earth?
--I suspect that this structure was built this way to make Gandalf’s approach difficult and dangerous both for dramatic tension and to emphasize how serious the builders were about imprisoning their captives, whether they are dead or not.
3.3 Who built it? What does the Pukel Man outside mean? We know in the texts the Druedain had magical powers and the location of the other Pukel Men near Dunharrow reminds us of two other instances of men with "magic" (Isildur and Malbeth). Equally the Pukel Men carvings are linked to the idea of Watch Stones which come to life to protect things (UT). What do you think is being hinted at here?
--Maybe the tombs were built by the victors after the defeat of the Witch King of Angmar by an army of Men and Elves. Maybe he and the other eight Nazgul were captured and imprisoned in the North instead of fleeing to Mordor. Could the victors have believed them dead or just defeated and dormant?
--The Pukel Man carving is interesting. Is he just set decoration placed there to add antiquity and mystery to the site, or does he actually indicate something about the builders? Most of the stuff about the Pukel Men is in things like UT that the writers of the movies can't access so I think it unlikely that they are overtly referencing the legends of the stone protectors.
3.4 What are these spells carved around the tombs? Why have the bars if you believe those inside are dead? Clearly both were ineffectual, so had something changed or did whoever built the tombs not know enough about the Nazgul? Since the White Council also knew about the tombs, what of the same questions for them?
--I'd guess that the spells are intended to keep the evil within the tombs from escaping and keep everyone else out. Maybe the occupants were dormant rather than dead. The spells seem to have worked for centuries until the reappearance of Sauron in the guise of the Necromancer. Perhaps the rise of Sauron, his increasing efficacy and power, somehow enabled the prisoners to escape, maybe even brought them back to life so to speak, if PJ runs with the Necromancer idea.
--Presumably the White Council thought the safeguards were sufficient.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 25 2014, 7:39pm
Post #29 of 34
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Angmar was in the North and transversed the Misty Mountains with its eastern border located east of the source of the Anduin. Presumably, the Men of the North wouldn't have gone thousands of miles out of their way to entomb the Witch-king. The western end of the Grey Mountains were part of Angmar, so the tomb must have been in the Misty Mountains, but on the eastern side instead of the western one. Any other location (including the Grey Mountains near Gundabad) puts it even further from the Elf-gate into Mirkwood. In fact, the Misty Mountains east of Rhugaur is the nearest possible location in relation to the Elf-gate.
No matter how I figure it, I keep getting the same answer.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 25 2014, 7:44pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Aug 25 2014, 7:40pm
Post #30 of 34
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Equally, I think we totally agree
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On the likely location. It's only the primary reason for that likelihood which we are discussing and which is a moot point.
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elostirion74
Rohan
Aug 26 2014, 2:28pm
Post #31 of 34
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a scene which breaks the natural flow of the films
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1.1: In the context of DoS he's there primarily to follow up on his own suspicions. I think Gandalf has been pretty sure about Sauron's return since the first talk with Radagast (AUJ) and having seen the sword - this trip is mainly to confirm his own suspicions.
1.2. Well, Gandalf is known as a great wanderer and has been on many journeys alone. The beginning of this scene therefore seems very natural to me, although it's rare that we see this kind of image of Gandalf in the films.
1.3. Gandalf trusts and respects Radagast and he also needs a witness to his findings.
1.5. This scene was originally meant for AUJ. At the intended inclusion point in AUJ, Gandalf wasn't aware of Azog and his role. As it was intended this was more of a natural follow-up to
his conversation with Galadriel and finding the answer to the riddle of the Morgul blade. The advantage of placing it in DoS is having it closer to the actual approach to Dol Guldur, both in terms of space and time, since it's clearly linked to the Dol Guldur sub-plot.
Whether you place the scene in AUJ or in DoS this scene will still be at a considerable disadvantage, though, since it breaks the natural flow of the story in both films (in AUJ it
would have slowed the film down too much at a time when the film needed to get back to the main story). In my opinion it's a kind of scene which ought to have been cut and placed in an extended edition if ever it needed to be filmed at all - the idea of tombs for the Nazgűl is not a particularly well-considered idea when you know these creatures are wraiths.
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elostirion74
Rohan
Aug 26 2014, 2:36pm
Post #32 of 34
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2.1 There seems to be a deliberate contrast between Radagast's appearance and mannerisms and his actual impact and strength. I really like this contrast, since it's a fine nod to Tolkien's repeated comments about there being more to a person than what meets the eye. Radagast may live a secluded life and appear isolated, but he is clearly capable of considerable strength and understanding. Mc Koy gives a really fine and truthful performance as Radagast in my opinion and it's regrettable that it doesn't seem to have been more appreciated.
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elostirion74
Rohan
Aug 26 2014, 2:45pm
Post #33 of 34
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3.1 It doesn't really remind me of any LoTR setting. In DoS Rhudaur is clearly placed somewhere north east of the Misty Mountains seen from Rivendell. As the scene was originally intended Rhudaur is probably placed in the same location as in the books.
3.2 and 3.3: I would expect that the Dúnedain or their people constructed it with the help of the Elves for the spells. I think the main intention was to place the tombs in a very remote location, to make it difficult to find them and disturb them.
The Pűkel-Man is probably there mostly to give a sense of history and mystery.
3.4: The idea of the spells and the bars on the tombs is not a particularly well-considered idea. I think we're meant to think that Sauron broke the spell on the tombs and released the Nazgűl.
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elostirion74
Rohan
Aug 26 2014, 2:59pm
Post #34 of 34
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1. I wouldn't say that Gandalf is unable to question Saruman, I think it's rather that Gandalf knows/understands it's futile to try without more proof. When Gandalf sees the empty tombs we're probably meant to understand that he now with certainty connects the dots, instead of just having strong suspicions. Also Gandalf did know of the price on Thorin's head, which was written in Black Speech (which is rarely seen).
2. I didn't know about him not appearing in the 1937 edition, but it doesn't really impact my understanding of him, since Azog still primarily in the books appears as a powerful orc who provides background to the history of the dwarves and Thorin. I didn't mind including Azog in the films, but I think it would have been more natural if they had him replaced with Bolg.
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