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Cirashala
Valinor
Aug 19 2014, 5:13am
Post #26 of 36
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The statue also had the zig zag pattern on the front that ended abruptly (unlike what we know is the stair side)- and given the geometrical patterns adorning all the dwarves' clothing and architecture, plus that they never came together enough to not require ropes of some kind to climb up unless you're a giant (see my post well above here, where I posted a picture link showing what I mean) it's not immediately clear that they are stairs, I think. Bilbo's cleverness may have been key to solving that riddle, just like he was the one to solve the actual keyhole mystery later on in that scene.
Plus the statue may be part of a number that surround the mountain (we don't see the other sides but there's clearly at least two more statues out front), but it's still well off the beaten path and the road- in a pretty remote location compared to Dale and the front gate. I don't really see many people venturing toward where it would be on a normal basis (even if the dragon weren't there).
So it seems to me that, unless one knew there was a door up there (you can't see the door itself til the keyhole becomes clear- and even then it's JUST the hole, which you would need elf eyes to see from the ground, and even then the elves may have issues with how far up it is and the angle), one would think it's just one of a number of dwarf statues sitting next to the mountain. Combine that ignorance of the door with the geometry naturally present in ALL things dwarf- from weapons to jewelry to clothing to architecture (or heck- Nori's hair  )- and I can see how someone might have no clue there was a door up there if they didn't know about it beforehand.
Others may see a simple statue, but Bilbo may have perceived that it was possible to climb up there, and combining that with the map that showed the door must be around there somewhere (which I might point out was also secret, as there was only one map of it in existence) logically it would make sense that it would be up that way to a company that has all the clues.
But to the casual passerby? Or even other rulers/armies without the map and knowledge of the door even existing? Not likely.
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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Aug 19 2014, 5:29am
Post #27 of 36
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dwarves built that giant statue and the hidden stairway inside it, wouldn't the dwarves ask why they are making a stairway to nowhere ?? The point of this thread is not the secret door, the secret door makes sense.
The flames of war are upon you..
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Cirashala
Valinor
Aug 19 2014, 5:49am
Post #28 of 36
(502 views)
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It could have been done with very trusted dwarves
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A King's personal guard knows incredibly intimate details of every aspect of a kings' life- but are they allowed to speak of it without dire consequences?
I would imagine that this was a job that was treated with the utmost secrecy. In fact, it's entirely possible that Thror or one of his forefathers built the door part himself, but left the statue work to the workers. And when you have a king whose not quite right in the head, then I suppose they may not have thought anything of it. Maybe the statue had been built with the topmost part of the stairs at a dead end like the front, and thought of as merely decoration, then Thror and Thrain opened up a passageway and built the connection point and the door themselves.
All dwarves have skill with stone and metal- that's part of their makeup. And since Thorin obviously was able to learn blacksmithing in exile, it's entirely plausible that they would have known or been able to learn enough about stonework and masonry to be able to finish what the "worker bees" started and convert the statue to a hidden door.
I don't know- I guess in the end it's all speculation (though I'm hoping the commentary or behind the scenes stuff or even the DOS EE itself might be able to shed more light on this topic  ).
Sometimes the best hiding place for something is right out in the open where no one expects it 
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Aug 19 2014, 9:06am
Post #29 of 36
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Well if you have any ideas on why the dwarves would have designed it the way they did (given the issues outlined in my posts here) I'd be interested to hear them.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Aug 19 2014, 9:10am
Post #30 of 36
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I think you might be misunderstanding
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This post was an extension of the previous one (apologies but it occurred to me after I'd pressed submit) - it doesn't have anything to do with the dragon.
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FrostyLemon
The Shire
Aug 19 2014, 10:29am
Post #31 of 36
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You have keen eyes master hobbit!
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Unrelated I suppose, but my friend and I found it particularly funny when Thorin says this line in DOS. I great bastion of rock carved into a dwarf that towers up the side of the mountain, and he's impressed that only Bilbo could see it ha.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Aug 19 2014, 4:02pm
Post #32 of 36
(465 views)
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My husband & daughter keep saying "why don't they come back next year?" Now I have an answer that makes some sense, especially since the moon runes could only be read "by the same moon in the same season on which they were made," which was implied to be quite a few years. Perhaps that, too was tied into the Durin's Day cycle. And dwarves live alot longer than humans, so they could afford to wait several years/decades for something to happen. I think it's quite possible that you could leave through the secret door anytime, but entering it was pretty restricted - but I could be wrong about that.
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Aitieuriskon
Lorien
Aug 19 2014, 5:04pm
Post #33 of 36
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It makes complete sense that the dwarves would have learned from previous disastrous exiles and developed system by which they might reclaim their halls of stone.
I just wanted to add that, in addition to this function as a secret entry point, the door also functioned (perhaps primarily) as an emergency exit for the royal line (as you've pointed out in your quotation) and might have physically operated in a similar way to the hidden West Gate of Khazad Dum. In other words, it probably was not necessary to wait for Durin's Day AND be in possession of the map&key in order to exit the mountain using this route: Dwarven doors could apparently be opened with ease from the inside simply by applying sufficient force so long as you knew exactly where they were (thus Gandalf was able to pass through Moria and exit the west gate travelling west, but got tripped up when he attempted the journey with the Fellowship eastbound). Smaug almost certainly didn't sack Erebor exactly on Durin's Day, so Thrain and Thror must have been able to escape the mountain via the Hidden Door without needing to wait. They alone knew where the door was located (or indeed that it even existed).
"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951
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Aitieuriskon
Lorien
Aug 19 2014, 5:21pm
Post #34 of 36
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It would not have mattered if the builders of the stairway & colossus of Thror knew they were leading to a secret passage. What matters is that they be kept ignorant of how the door was to be accessed. It was impossible to enter the mountain even when Thorin's Company knew exactly where the door was since they still needed to complete these additional steps:
1.) Be in possession of Thror's Map (not for the location, but for the runes)
2.) Be looking at Thror's map at exactly the right date & time to read the moon-letters (would've missed this if they hadn't stopped by Elrond's en route)
3.) Know exactly when the next Durin's Day would come around (probably not a simple process; the Dwarven calendar was different from most others)
4.) Have enough time to show up on the doorstep on DD (almost screwed this up when jailed by the elvenking)
5.) Have Thror's key (almost lost in in the movie-verse)
6.) Have the patience to wait for the keyhole to appear (i.e. solve the riddle implicit in the moon runes)
In all likelihood, none of the builders would have been able to put their hands on Thror's map because it didn't exist as a physical entity prior to Thror and Thrain leaving the mountain. Prior to their exile, the King Under the Mountain probably would have just showed his heir the location of the secret door in person rather than committing the secret to paper. However, once the dwarves were no longer occupying the mountain and lived far to the east and west after their great diaspora, Thror saw the need for a map to go along with his heirloom key.
So, to recap, the Hidden Door's location was not what kept it hidden; it was the means of opening said door from the outside, which ONLY the Heirs of Durin were aware of.
EDIT:
To address your question of why the Hidden Door wasn't common knowledge to all dwarves (including Thorin) I would point out that there are certainly closely-guarded secret bunkers located all over most developed countries in our time, and that the vast majority of the civilian population probably has no idea of their presence unless one gains the right security clearance. Imagine the hidden door as intel known only to dwarves with the highest-level security clearance in Erebor (the King, his heir (singular), the builders of the stairway&colossus, and perhaps the royal bodyguards). The statue itself was clearly positioned so as to be visible only to those in the vicinity and appears to be well off the beaten track (high up on a particularly rough part of the mountain on a completely different side from the main entrance and probably above the habitable zone).
"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951
(This post was edited by Aitieuriskon on Aug 19 2014, 5:32pm)
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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Aug 19 2014, 7:49pm
Post #35 of 36
(446 views)
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The flames of war are upon you..
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Aug 20 2014, 12:39pm
Post #36 of 36
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Perhaps not a secret, but a very complicated one
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like some pointed out, a riddel by itself
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer
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