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**The unofficial Bored of the Rings discussion** Ch. VIII, pt. 3. - "Come in and get me," he said, making the correct reply.

squire
Half-elven


Aug 17 2014, 8:26pm

Post #1 of 8 (3246 views)
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**The unofficial Bored of the Rings discussion** Ch. VIII, pt. 3. - "Come in and get me," he said, making the correct reply. Can't Post

Welcome back to the continuing Reading Room discussion of J. R. R. Tolkien’s Bored of the Rings. We are reading Chapter 8, in which Tolkien more or less savages the entirety of Book 4 of his more popular work, The Lord of the Rings. A scant six months ago we covered the sections in which Frito and Spam meet Goddam, cross the treacherous Ngaio Marsh, and confront the Gate of Fordor. The biggest danger so far, if you remember, has been Goddam’s insidious talent of nearly boring us to death. But other dangers await…
The little party set out once more into the night and walked for many long liters into the south, always skirting the stony ring that surrounded Fordor with a ring of stone.
Whoa! At the end of the previous passage, Frito and Spam had watched a horde of enemy soldiers march into the movie-marquee spectacle that was the “great Gate of Fordor”; then they had subdued a more-boring-than-usual Goddam by shoving a loaf of raisin bread into his mouth, both gagging and silencing him. Now they’re “setting out once more” and walking south.
A. What about the debate and the choice, the resolution, the pleading, the suspicion, etc.? You know whereof I speak.

B. Is the ‘stony ring / ring of stone’ bit just Tolkien being playful? Or is it a cleared-up reference to the connection between Isengard and Mordor (and Minas Tirith) that his original title “The Two Towers” was so vague about?

C. Is the joke on metric units, a professorial jab at the idiocy of replacing good old English terms for measurements with made-up French words, worthy of this book?

The road they followed was flat and smooth, the remnant of some ancient linoleum-paved highway, and by the time the moon was high in the sky, they had left the Gate of Fordor far behind. Around midnight the stars became obscured with a great many clouds the size of a man's hand, and shortly after a tremendous torrent swept through the land, pouring wet, annoyed pointers and retrievers on the miserable travelers. But the boggies pressed on behind Goddam, and after a bruising fifteen minutes, the storm passed and, dropping a few last chihuahuas, moved westward.
For the rest of the night they journeyed under dimly visible stars, numbed by the cold and Goddam's endless stream of knock-knock jokes. It was very late at night when they found themselves at the edge of a large forest, and heading off the road, they took shelter in a small grove. In a moment they were fast asleep.

D. How much does this passage make fun of the opening of Chapter 4 of Book 4, "Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit", and how much is flat and smooth, I mean, straight?


’Raining cats and dogs and pitchforks’ (the original phrase), 1817, George Cruikshank.

Tolkien prided himself on his ability to recreate the original, or “asterisk version” (kudos to Tom Shippey’s critical work) of modern-day folklore and tales. (A famous instance is his “Man in the Moon” song that Frodo sings in Bree, supposedly the original song from which the nursery rhyme “Hey diddle diddle” has descended to us.)
E. Is Tolkien making fun of this idea here, with his elaborate exegesis on the phrase ‘raining cats and dogs’?

There is no such storm as they enter Ithilien at this point in the original story, as you know. There is, of course, a fabulous storm that links Books 3 and 4. It washes over Frodo and Sam in the Emyn Muil and appears the next day at Helm’s Deep.
F. Is this that storm, or not? If so, why is it out of sequence? If not, what purpose does it serve within this version of the story?



Knock-knock jokes? Are they numbing, or good plain fun? Are they one of the horrors of the American scene? Are they known in Britain or the other English-speaking nations, or are they universal? Does Tolkien really know just how funny they are when you’re about eight? How old was Tolkien anyway, deep inside?
G. Knock-knock jokes about Tolkien. Share ‘em if you’ve got ‘em.

Large forest, small grove.
H. It’s at the end of his arm… I mean, it’s got to be a joke or something, so cough up.
Frito awoke with a start to find the little grove completely surrounded by tall, grim-looking men clad from head to toe in British racing green. They held huge green bows, and they wore shaggy wigs of bright green hair. Frito rose unsteadily to his feet and kicked Spam.
At that point, the tallest of the bowmen stepped forward and approached him. He wore a propeller beanie with a long green feather and a large silver badge with the word Chief and some recumbent pigeons, and Frito guessed that he must be their leader.
"You're completely surrounded; you haven't got a chance; come out with your hands up," said the captain sternly.
Frito bowed low. "Come in and get me," he said, making the correct reply.
"I am Farahslax, of the Green Toupées," said the captain.
"I am Frito, of nothing in particular," said Frito shakily.
"Can I kill them a little?" squealed a short squat man with a black nose-patch, rushing to Farahslax with a garrote.
"Nay, Magnavox," said Farahslax. "Who are you?" he said, turning to Frito, "and what is your evil purpose?"

It’s eerie how, this far into this interminable book (and discussion) the above passage still deftly mixes straight lifts from Frodo’s encounter with Faramir, with an astounding mashup of pop culture images from a certain era.
I. To start with: what are the direct references to Lord of the Rings? Are there any exact quotes?

J. Where does the squealing Magnavox and his garrote come from? Are the Rangers of Ithilien prone to murderous violence without Faramir’s moderate leadership?




OK, serious stuff over.
British racing green. Shaggy wigs of bright green hair. Propeller beanie. Long green feather. Silver badge with the word Chief. Recumbent pigeons. The cops-and-robbers dialogue. Farahslax.
K. What do they mean? Digging deeper into Cultural Studies, why are they here?


Hit movie from 1948

I am particularly baffled by the idea of the “Green Toupees”. The best I can do is speculate that Tolkien knew that Robin Hood, with distinctively red hair, wore a black wig to fool the Sheriff of Nottingham; green is the opposite of red; and Farahslax is a parody of Faramir who’s ripping off Robin Hood…
L. Help me, Obi-wan Kenobe.
"My companions and I are going to Fordor to cast the Great Ring into the Zazu Pits," said Frito.
At that, Farahslax's face darkened, and looking first at Goddam and Spam, then back to Frito, he tiptoed out of the grove with a little smile and disappeared with his men into the surrounding forest, singing merrily:

"We are stealthy Green Toupées
Skulking nights and snoozing days,
A team of silent, nasty men,
Who all think Sorhed's numbah ten.

Draw their fire
Flank on right
Narcs retire
Fight-team-fight!

Using every grungy trick
From booby trap to pungee stick
We hardly need the strength of thirty
When we can win by playing dirty.

Two-four-six-eight
Tiptoe, sneak
And infiltrate
Cha-cha-cha."

This is the only song to appear in this chapter, and clearly balances the Roi-tanners’ song in the previous chapter.
M. Or does it? What about the song of the Vee-ates? Is there a pattern here?

These two BotR chapters echo the two middle books of the original work. But Book 4 of LotR is about Frodo’s grim journey to Mordor when, famously, the songs peter out; there are only two, compared to over a dozen in Book 3.
N. Isn’t it odd that Tolkien has added a major song to this version of Book 4?

As usual, it’s worth dissecting this verse for its variety of references. You go first.
O. Would I be right in summing it up as Ho Chi Minh takes the Green Berets to a Ballroom Dance class at Notre Dame?



As we know from The History of Middle-earth, Tolkien originally did not expect to develop Gondor’s presence in Ithilien as an episode in Frodo’s journey to Mordor. As he memorably put it, “A new character has come on the scene (I am sure I did not invent him, I did not even want him, though I like him, but there he came walking into the woods of Ithilien): Faramir, the brother of Boromir” (JRRT, Letters, #66)
P. Why does he choose to cut the entire Henneth Annun sequence here, effectively reversing what he did in the larger work?



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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Watcher
Registered User


Aug 18 2014, 3:49am

Post #2 of 8 (2945 views)
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"clouds the size of a man's hand" [In reply to] Can't Post

In case anyone didn't catch it, this line:

"Around midnight the stars became obscured with a great many clouds the size of a man's hand, and shortly after a tremendous torrent swept through the land, pouring wet, annoyed pointers and retrievers on the miserable travelers."


is a reference to 1 Kings 18:43-45a:

And [Elijah] said to his servant, “Go up now, look toward the sea.” And he went up and looked and said, “There is nothing.” And he said, “Go again,” seven times. And at the seventh time he said, “Behold, a little cloud like a man's hand is rising from the sea.” And he said, “Go up, say to Ahab, ‘Prepare your chariot and go down, lest the rain stop you.’” And in a little while the heavens grew black with clouds and wind, and there was a great rain.

Back to lurking.


Darkstone
Immortal


Aug 18 2014, 9:10pm

Post #3 of 8 (2943 views)
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"Eärendil was a Recumbent Pigeon" [In reply to] Can't Post

"Don't go putting any bits of your 'Eressëan', or 'Elf-latin', or whatever you call it, into your verses at Oxford. It might scan, but it wouldn't pass."
-Oswin Errol, The Lost Road, J. R. R. Tolkien


A. What about the debate and the choice, the resolution, the pleading, the suspicion, etc.? You know whereof I speak.

You know how adaptations always leave out character development. Thanks Ob...,er, that is, thanks PJ!


B. Is the ‘stony ring / ring of stone’ bit just Tolkien being playful?

Just like a noble lady named Noble Lady (Arwen), a lady of light named Lady of Light (Galadriel), a ship maker named Ship Maker (Cirdan), someone golden haired named Golden Haired (Glorfindel), an enchantress named Enchantress (Lúthien), a mortal lady named Mortal Lady (Firiel), a black pit named Black Pit (Moria), and so on and so forth. Tolkien’s got a million of ‘em!


Or is it a cleared-up reference to the connection between Isengard and Mordor (and Minas Tirith) that his original title “The Two Towers” was so vague about?

I’m thinking it’s a reference to the long elusive Ring of Stones sometimes sighted on the coast of Western Australia which in the end turned out to be at least four entirely different rings of stone, though one was actually a wall of stones and another still hasn't been found again.


C. Is the joke on metric units, a professorial jab at the idiocy of replacing good old English terms for measurements with made-up French words, worthy of this book?

One might indeed measure a roads trip by liters (“Ninety-nine bottles of beer on the wall…”) but this seems to be a reference to Tolkien’s obsession with all things Finnish, in this case the schizophrenic Finnish unit of measurement called the "kortteli", which equals both 327.15 milliliters and 14.845 centimeters.


D. How much does this passage make fun of the opening of Chapter 4 of Book 4, "Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit", and how much is flat and smooth, I mean, straight?

Watcher nails the reference to 1 Kings 18:44.


E. Is Tolkien making fun of this idea here, with his elaborate exegesis on the phrase ‘raining cats and dogs’?

Ominously, pointers and retrievers are used for hunting.

He halted their journey, and they rested, squatting like little hunted animals, in the borders of a great brown reed-thicket.
-The Passage of the Marshes

Gollum, however, was helpless with terror, and was convinced that they were being hunted, that their approach was known.
-ibid


Note Chihuahuas are the Bombadils of dog breeds, of enigmatic origin, possibly degraded descendants of whatever eldritch horrors caused the collapse of Pre-Columbian Paquimé.


There is no such storm as they enter Ithilien at this point in the original story, as you know. There is, of course, a fabulous storm that links Books 3 and 4. It washes over Frodo and Sam in the Emyn Muil and appears the next day at Helm’s Deep.

Storms are like that.


F. Is this that storm, or not? If so, why is it out of sequence? If not, what purpose does it serve within this version of the story?

At least Tolkien keeps a tighter rein on his metaphors here than earlier:

The skirts of the storm were lifting, ragged and wet, and the main battle had passed to spread its great wings over the Emyn Muil; upon which the dark thought of Sauron brooded for a while. Thence it turned, smiting the Vale of Anduin with hail and lightning, and casting its shadow upon Minas Tirith with threat of war. Then, lowering in the mountains, and gathering its great spires, it rolled on slowly over Gondor and the skirts of Rohan, until far away the Riders on the plain saw its black towers moving behind the sun, as they rode into the West.
-The Taming of Smeagol

That is, if you believe balrogs got wings, then you gotta believe Middle-earth storms roll around in ball gowns smiting things.


Knock-knock jokes? Are they numbing, or good plain fun? Are they one of the horrors of the American scene? Are they known in Britain or the other English-speaking nations, or are they universal? Does Tolkien really know just how funny they are when you’re about eight? How old was Tolkien anyway, deep inside?

Knock-knock jokes seem to be a wise-guy subversion of the old Dictionary parlor game. (Edward Pevensey’s definition of gastrovascular as “"worst game ever invented" only needed a “knock-knock” and an appropriate pun to qualify.)


G. Knock-knock jokes about Tolkien. Share ‘em if you’ve got ‘em.

Knock-knock!

Tolkien!

Tolkien who?

Who are you Tolkien about?


Knock-knock!

Who’s there?

Bad Elvis!

Bad Elvis who?

If you receive bad Elvis medicine, then return to Sindar!


Knock-knock!

Who’s there?

Baggins!

Baggins who?

Put down your Baggins stay a while!


(And the classic from NZStrider):

Knock-knock!

Who’s there?

Nazgul!

Nazgul who?

What’s a Nazgul like you doing in a place like this?


I. To start with: what are the direct references to Lord of the Rings?

Lots of people are described with "evil purpose": Gollum, Shelob, Gandalf.


Are there any exact quotes?

Er, what?


J. Where does the squealing Magnavox and his garrote come from?

In 1917 Magnavox began marketing the revolutionary moving-coil speaker, featuring a coil of wire wrapped around a magnet. (Like a garrote wrapped around a neck.) Note that without a proper diaphragm, aka cone, or *nose* cone, the speaker will suffer from acoustic distortion and “squeal”.

(Playboy Magazine in the 1960s often featured really in-depth technical articles about how to select the very best in hi-fi systems. Yes, there were articles in there.)


Are the Rangers of Ithilien prone to murderous violence without Faramir’s moderate leadership?

They’re guerillas. Murderous violence is what they do.


OK, serious stuff over.

K. What do they mean? Digging deeper into Cultural Studies, why are they here?

British racing green.


Along with British Southern Railway green and American John Deere green, Tolkien would go apoplectic.


Shaggy wigs of bright green hair.

Copper (not chlorine) in swimming pools will turn blonde hair green. Obviously the reason the Forbidden Pool is forbidden is cupric contamination. (Are Faramir’s men actually Strawheads?)


Propeller beanie.

The only people who read Tolkien, scifi, and fantasy in the 1960s were those who wore propeller beanies. Eventually the fashion stereotype was supplanted by pocket protectors and taped horn-rimmed glasses. Nowadays nerds have multi-million dollar mansions, gold limosines, and trophy wives/husbands.


Long green feather.

The Green Feather Movement was a very short-lived 1950s college protest against McCarthyism.


Silver badge with the word Chief.

The Chief Scout Silver Award Badge is the highest award in the Cub Scouts.

Plus Green Berets (not Toupees) wear "silver wings upon their chests" because they are jump qualified.


Recumbent pigeons.

According to standard heraldry, recumbent (also "lodged" or "couchant") indicates sovereignty. Pigeons indicate a mariner.

Seems one of Farahslax’s ancestors was a sailor-king.

*Darkstone hums “Eärendil was a Mariner.”*


The cops-and-robbers dialogue.

Seems I’m not the only one who saw Faramir’s questioning of Frodo as a backroom police interrogation, complete with threats of rubber hoses and good cop/bad cop trickery.


Farahslax.

In the 1920s, Mansour Farah, a Lebanese immigrant, moved from Canada to Texas and opened up a garment factory. By the 1960s wash and wear permanent press Farah Slacks were the uniforms for hippies, college students, and businessmen alike.

(In the 1970s the garment empire built on the backs of cheap Mexican-American labor began a long decline when the workers started to unionize. Of course this was post-BotR.)


"My companions and I are going to Fordor to cast the Great Ring into the Zazu Pits," said Frito.

ZaSu Pitts was a silent comedy actress who wowed Hollywood by a very moving dramatic performance in Erich von Stroheim’s Greed (1924), often touted as the greatest performance in one of the greatest films ever made. By the thirties she was back to making B-list comedies, usually as part of the first great female comedy team in Hollywood with Thelma Todd. By the 1960s her mere name was often a punchline in many of Johnny Carson’s Tonight Show bits.


At that, Farahslax's face darkened, and looking first at Goddam and Spam, then back to Frito, he tiptoed out of the grove with a little smile and disappeared with his men into the surrounding forest, singing merrily:

"We are stealthy Green Toupées
Skulking nights and snoozing days,
A team of silent, nasty men,
Who all think Sorhed's numbah ten.

Draw their fire
Flank on right
Narcs retire
Fight-team-fight!

Using every grungy trick
From booby trap to pungee stick
We hardly need the strength of thirty
When we can win by playing dirty.

Two-four-six-eight
Tiptoe, sneak
And infiltrate
Cha-cha-cha."

This is the only song to appear in this chapter, and clearly balances the Roi-tanners’ song in the previous chapter.
M. Or does it? What about the song of the Vee-ates? Is there a pattern here?


This is a parody of Barry Sadler’s 1966 ultra-patriotic song “The Ballad of the Green Berets”. Green Berets (rhymes with “Green Toupees”) were United States Army Special Forces who used unconventional (i.e., guerilla) tactics in the Vietnamese War. Included in the above parody are some terms from the war such as the GI pidgin “numbah ten” (Meaning “worst”, as opposed to “numbah one” meaning “best”.) and references to the nasty booby traps called pungee sticks, which were hidden sharpened bamboo sticks coated with human feces. (Viet Cong often preferred to disable American soldiers rather than kill, as one wounded man also neutralized the one or two healthy men who had to help them.)

Of course these upstanding, red-blooded, straight-shooting, square-dealing American, er, that is, Gondorian boys would never ever use the Enemy's own skulking, sneaky, grungy, dirty, orcish tactics against him. No, sirree, bob!


These two BotR chapters echo the two middle books of the original work. But Book 4 of LotR is about Frodo’s grim journey to Mordor when, famously, the songs peter out; there are only two, compared to over a dozen in Book 3.
N. Isn’t it odd that Tolkien has added a major song to this version of Book 4?


The fact that Sadler’s song hit #1 on the charts greatly annoyed many collegiates. So how could Tolkien resist giving it a quick bash?

BTW, after leaving the Green Berets (not Toupees), Sadler began wrtiting his own fantasy series, "Casca: The Eternal Mercenary", with new books being regularly published even today though he's been dead for a quarter century.

(George R. R. Martin, gaze upon your postumous literary fate and despair!)


As usual, it’s worth dissecting this verse for its variety of references. You go first.
O. Would I be right in summing it up as Ho Chi Minh takes the Green Berets to a Ballroom Dance class at Notre Dame?


Probably. Or not.


P. Why does he choose to cut the entire Henneth Annun sequence here, effectively reversing what he did in the larger work?

Because The Forbidden Pool is a silly place.

******************************************
"It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man pierced with many black-feathered arrows, must be in want of a funeral."


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Aug 23 2014, 3:50pm

Post #4 of 8 (2883 views)
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Sublime. [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for that bit of information - definitely packs a punch!

Wink


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"





dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Aug 23 2014, 5:16pm

Post #5 of 8 (2897 views)
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It's not easy, being green... [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien? I thought it was Tolkein?

A. What about the debate and the choice, the resolution, the pleading, the suspicion, etc.? You know whereof I speak.
Too verbose. Readers were losing interest in droves at this point. Gotta get the show on the road again! Besides, they only had the one loaf of bread and couldn't afford another somnambulent discourse.

B. Is the ‘stony ring / ring of stone’ bit just Tolkien being playful? Or is it a cleared-up reference to the connection between Isengard and Mordor (and Minas Tirith) that his original title “The Two Towers” was so vague about?
We should be more concerned with the twice-used word "ring", emphasizing the main antagonist of the story! A "ring" enclosing the birthplace of The Ring? No mere happenstance, this!

C. Is the joke on metric units, a professorial jab at the idiocy of replacing good old English terms for measurements with made-up French words, worthy of this book?
The term "liters" could refer to the amount of fluid being drunk along the long walk. Measuring distances by the number of granola bars and juice drinks consumed is not uncommon among American parents.
Then again, this could simply refer to the inability of Americans to distinguise between the various units of metric measurement...not uncommon in the 60's, and sadly not uncommon yet today.

D. How much does this passage make fun of the opening of Chapter 4 of Book 4, "Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit", and how much is flat and smooth, I mean, straight?
Remembering the old linoleum floors of days gone by, given enough wax those things could indeed outlast stone paving - and crack just as sharply. Travelling by moonlight would have been risky in both texts!

E. Is Tolkien making fun of this idea here, with his elaborate exegesis on the phrase ‘raining cats and dogs’?
This is not so much making fun of that phrase, than emphasizing the three travellers: the pointer (Frito, with the Ring-finger); the retriever (Spam, who'd pinch anything if he could use it); and chihuahuas, the hairless underdogs of the dog world (Goddam).

F. Is this that storm, or not? If so, why is it out of sequence? If not, what purpose does it serve within this version of the story?
It serves some comic relief to an otherwise dry travelogue. (Get it? "Dry"?)

G. Knock-knock jokes about Tolkien. Share ‘em if you’ve got ‘em.
Aw, Darkstone took the classic Nazgul one! Okay, here's a couple more:
Knock-knock.
Who's there?
Toby!
Toby who?
Toby or not toby...

Knock-knock.
Knock-knock.
Who's there?
Tolkien!
Tolkien who?
Tolkien' to you, that's who!

Knock-knock.
Who's there?
Balin.
Balin who?
Balin' out of here, these are getting bad...

H. It’s at the end of his arm… I mean, it’s got to be a joke or something, so cough up.
This is one of the greatest mysteries of this segment. A grove? Why a grove? Ugh, grove? Could the raisin d'etre of this word be its specifically referring to a small stand of fruit or nut trees, indicative of the mentality of the travellers?

I. To start with: what are the direct references to Lord of the Rings? Are there any exact quotes?
Ooh! This is almost word-for-word! If you ignore some of the words, that is.

"Frito awoke with a start to find the little grove completely surrounded": the nap actually comes later, but the astonishment and "we can not escape" is in both texts.

"...by tall, grim-looking men clad from head to toe in British racing green. They held huge green bows, and they wore shaggy wigs of bright green hair." The green bows replace the green-feathered arrows, and the racing green replaces the green and brown hues, but in both texts the men have their heads covered in green. Treebeard would see right through them. (This answers L. as well.)

"Frito rose unsteadily to his feet and kicked Spam." This is actually Merry and Pippin on the walls of Isengard. Nice to see this scene included.

"At that point, the tallest of the bowmen stepped forward and approached him. He wore a propeller beanie with a long green feather and a large silver badge with the word Chief and some recumbent pigeons, and Frito guessed that he must be their leader." In the original text the leader is the tallest. Here, the beanie helps increase the height of the Chief.

"You're completely surrounded; you haven't got a chance; come out with your hands up," said the captain sternly.
Frito bowed low. "Come in and get me," he said, making the correct reply.
"I am Farahslax, of the Green Toupées," said the captain.
"I am Frito, of nothing in particular," said Frito shakily.
Once again, the play on the formal speech the boggies enounter in strange lands!

"Can I kill them a little?" squealed a short squat man with a black nose-patch, rushing to Farahslax with a garrote.
Mablung and Damrod couldn't wait to get their hands on some servants of Sauron!

"Nay, Magnavox," said Farahslax. "Who are you?" he said, turning to Frito, "and what is your evil purpose?"
Suspicions, suspicions! Why do the people they encounter (in both stories) keep assuming they're spies for the "other side"!

J. Where does the squealing Magnavox and his garrote come from? Are the Rangers of Ithilien prone to murderous violence without Faramir’s moderate leadership?
They're here to ambush and kill. WITH his leadership. Murderous rogues!

K. What do they mean? Digging deeper into Cultural Studies, why are they here?
I concede to Darkstone and the chlorine in the Forbidden Pool. High five, man.
And only those of us who read these stories back in the Dark Days of the '60s would remember Farah slacks...

M. Or does it? What about the song of the Vee-ates? Is there a pattern here?
Once again Darkstone gets the kudos for noting the Barry Sadler rip-off. Which played on the radio ad infinatum, ad nauseum.
But for some strange reason whenever I start reading this song, my brain suddenly turns to "We're men, we're men in tights..." Mel Brooks was obviously a fan of this book!

N. Isn’t it odd that Tolkien has added a major song to this version of Book 4?
It was either this, or a verse about elephants. Which would you rather have?

O. Would I be right in summing it up as Ho Chi Minh takes the Green Berets to a Ballroom Dance class at Notre Dame?
We should be more worried by the "little smile" Farahslax had when he and his men "tiptoed" out of the grove. He's up to something, and I'll warrant it's no good. Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, we never find out, because...

P. Why does he choose to cut the entire Henneth Annun sequence here, effectively reversing what he did in the larger work?
...he never finished the storyline. Dumped it when it had barely begun. I think he could see where it was going, and realized that the world was not yet ready for Men in Tights.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"





sador
Half-elven


Aug 24 2014, 3:27pm

Post #6 of 8 (2890 views)
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Well, that's one of the surer ways to get me [In reply to] Can't Post

A BotR discussion!

As a matter of fact, I've noticed your post last Sunday, when I was setting out for a family vacation. I considered posting a "be back soon" note, adding a riddle about the Biblical reference. But I postponed it till the evening, by which time Watcher had already delurked and spilled the beans...

A. What about the debate and the choice, the resolution, the pleading, the suspicion, etc.? You know whereof I speak.
Yes, I've even led a discussion of that chpter once.
I think Tolkien just didn't have a good answer to the deus ex machina - eagles dilemma, so he decided to avoid the problem by skirting it.

Like Frito and Spam are doing now.

B. Is the ‘stony ring / ring of stone’ bit just Tolkien being playful? Or is it a cleared-up reference to the connection between Isengard and Mordor (and Minas Tirith) that his original title “The Two Towers” was so vague about?

Darkstone came up with quite a few parallels.
It might also be an oblique reference to Tim Benzedrine.

C. Is the joke on metric units, a professorial jab at the idiocy of replacing good old English terms for measurements with made-up French words, worthy of this book?
Or a jab on this whole, err, trip.


D. How much does this passage make fun of the opening of Chapter 4 of Book 4, "Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit", and how much is flat and smooth, I mean, straight?
An endless stream should be pretty smooth, if not necessarily straight
.

E. Is Tolkien making fun of this idea here, with his elaborate exegesis on the phrase ‘raining cats and dogs’?
Not exactly an answer to your question - but were have the cats gone?
And later in this chapter, Sauron's 'cat' becomes Sorhed's infuriated ex. Something is missing here.


Quote

But fat cat on the mat,
Raised as a pet,
He doesn't forget.



There is no such storm as they enter Ithilien at this point in the original story, as you know. There is, of course, a fabulous storm that links Books 3 and 4. It washes over Frodo and Sam in the Emyn Muil and appears the next day at Helm’s Deep.
F. Is this that storm, or not? If so, why is it out of sequence? If not, what purpose does it serve within this version of the story?
Well, seeing that the whole Helm's Deep sequence was cut out of this sequence (it was either blow it out of all proportions, or drop it altogether; Bakshi and Jackson opted for the first option).

G. Knock-knock jokes about Tolkien. Share ‘em if you’ve got ‘em.
I must say that the first knock-knock jokes I ran across were told by a couple of sisters I knew once. They were Australian, though. I never had the idea that the were "one of the horrors of the American scene".

But a Tolkien one... well, what about book III, chapter 3: "Ugluk was probably knocking off a few more heads"?

H. It’s at the end of his arm… I mean, it’s got to be a joke or something, so cough up.
Beats me.

More tomorrow.




sador
Half-elven


Aug 25 2014, 9:18am

Post #7 of 8 (2876 views)
Shortcut
Answers (part II) - remove the green tint! [In reply to] Can't Post

http://newboards.theonering.net/...forum_view_collapsed;

I. To start with: what are the direct references to Lord of the Rings? Are there any exact quotes?
I liked the "I'm Frito, of nothing of particular". An innocent traveller abroad!


J. Where does the squealing Magnavox and his garrote come from? Are the Rangers of Ithilien prone to murderous violence without Faramir’s moderate leadership?
I think he is more like Anborn, not shooting Gollum (twice) because of Faramir's express orders.

But see also:

Quote
"Your rope might prove useful again, Sam." he said.
Sam got out the rope. "And where were you off to in the cold hard lands, Mr. Gollum?" he growled. "We wonders. aye, we wonders. To find some of your orc-friends, I warrant. You nasty treacherous creature. It's round your neck this rope ought to go, and a tight noose too."



K. What do they mean? Digging deeper into Cultural Studies, why are they here?
You asking me? How would I know?

But just because you insist, two examples to show how clueless and, err, green I am:
The cops-and-robbers dialogue.
I've never realised that was were this came from. I've only connected it to Bromosel's bravado three chapters ago:

Quote


"That settles that," said Bromosel testily. "Yoo-hoo," he cried, "come and eat us," and from far away a deep voice echoed, "Me beastie, me do that thing."


Which I've always has in mind when watching Jackson's film.

Farahslax.
I've always read this as a contraction of "Farrah-is-lax" and wondered - who is this Farrah they are hinting at, and what is she lax about? Or perhaps it is better not to know?

But then Darkstone and dernwyn came and ruined it all for me...

L. Help me, Obi-wan Kenobe.
Okay, wiser (or more-thoroughly-initiated) members than me have already answered that. I know of that song, and have heard it once or twice, but it never left any lasting impression on me. A blessing of being born too late, I guess (although the songs which were being played ad inifinitum, ad nauseam when I was growing up were pretty bad themselves).

M. Or does it? What about the song of the Vee-ates? Is there a pattern here?
Yes. And it was set by the best of all:

Quote
We boggies are a hairy folk
Who like to eat until we choke.
Loving all like friend and brother,
And hardly ever eat each other.

Ever hungry, ever thirsting,
Never stop till belly's bursting.
Chewing chop and pork and muttons,
A merry race of boring gluttons.

Sing: Gobble, goggle, gobble, gobble,
Gobble, gobble, gobble, gobble.

Boggies gather round the table,
Eat as much as you are able.
Gorge yourselves from moon till noon
(Don't forget your plate and spoon).

Anything edible, we've got dibs on,
And hope we all die with our bibs on.
Ever gay, we'll never grow up,
Come! And sing and play and throw up!

Sing: Gobble, gobble, gobble, gobble,
Gobble, gobble, gobble, gobble!


N. Isn’t it odd that Tolkien has added a major song to this version of Book 4?
At least he spared us the knock-knock jokes.

O. Would I be right in summing it up as Ho Chi Minh takes the Green Berets to a Ballroom Dance class at Notre Dame?

Cha cha cha? I was thinking more of Ernesto Che and Fidel.

P. Why does he choose to cut the entire Henneth Annun sequence here, effectively reversing what he did in the larger work?
With the way Goddam's character had developed in this version, it would have been too boring. Better take the boggies to Osgiliath.

Speaking of this, I must mention that this version captures the momentous ridiculousness of Faramir's just letting the hobbits go upon hearing of their mission.







squire
Half-elven


Aug 26 2014, 7:07pm

Post #8 of 8 (2930 views)
Shortcut
Bad. But not bad enough. Knock-knock... [In reply to] Can't Post

Knock knock.
Who's there?
Gandalf.
Gandalf who?
Gandalf, not Lobelia, you nit.

Knock knock.
Who's there?
Sauron.
Sauron who?
Sauronded by the mountains of Mordor.

Knock knock.
Who's there?
Saruman.
Saruman who?
Sorry man, I threw the palantir out the window.

Knock knock.
Who's there?
C. S. Lewis.
C. S. Lewis who?
Si, es Luis. Quien es?

Knock knock.
Who's there?
Christopher.
Christopher who?
Christopher Tolkien, obviously.

Knock knock.
Who's there?
A hobbit.
A hobbit who?
A hobbit is a hard thing to break.

Knock knock.
Who's there?
Gollum.
Gollum who?
Gollum coaster is a terrible pun.

Knock knock.
Who's there?
Legolas.
Legolas who?
Legolast piece of cake and share it instead.

Knock knock.
Who's there?
Denethor.
Denethor who?
Denethor loser, so he quit the game.

Knock knock.
Who's there?
Sam.
Sam who?
Sam I am.

Knock knock.
Who's there?
Merry.
Merry who?
Merry Christmas!

Knock knock.
Who's there?
Eowyn.
Eowyn who?
Eowyn some, yo lose some.

Knock knock.
Who's there?
Aelfwine.
Aelfwine who?
Aelfwine is powerful stuff.

Knock knock.
Who's there?
Galadriel.
Galadriel who?
Galadriel get together next weekend.

Knock knock.
Who's there?
Ghan.
Ghan who?
Ghan bury Ghan in mound, horse master.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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