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JamesPaganini
Rivendell
Aug 5 2014, 11:27pm
Post #1 of 13
(986 views)
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Very interesting read that changes the way I see things in LOTR and The Hobbit
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http://m.tickld.com/x/this-guy-just-changed-the-way-we-see-lord-of-the-rings-mind-blown
Now I see the line "Fly you fools" in a different manor.
Not all those who wander are Lost
Darkness must pass. A new day will come and when the sun shines it will shine out the clearer.
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SafeUnderHill
Rohan
Aug 5 2014, 11:31pm
Post #2 of 13
(509 views)
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I've read something else previously say the exact same thing, Gandalf saying 'fly you fools' = take the eagles you morons.
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Elutherian
Rohan
Aug 5 2014, 11:34pm
Post #3 of 13
(553 views)
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I'm going to post the rebuttal I gave to this earlier.
[In reply to]
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Ok, that was pretty clever.
But there's one big problem with the theory... In The Fellowship of the Ring Gandalf clearly states his intentions: "We must hold west of the Misty Mountains for forty days. With any luck the Gap of Rohan will still be open to us. From there our road turns east to Mordor." He says this explicitly in both the film and the book.
His choice to take Caradhras was out of desperation when he realized Saruman's spies were watching the passage south. He decides to take the closest pass over the mountains which they were currently due west of.
The main reason he didn't want to go through Moria was Durin's bane (there were rumors it had been awokened in Khazad-Dum), and news of Goblin attacks on the Dwarven stronghold.
Plus, he says "Fly" on numerous other occasions and is clearly referring to running quickly using a common middle-english metaphor.
The Eagles are just dicks who only show up to help when they feel like it. Unfortunately they are not the Middle-Earth equivalent of a Taxi Service.
So.... there it is.
The Grey Pilgrim, they once called me. Three hundred lives of men I walked this earth, and now I have no time...
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Aug 5 2014, 11:37pm
Post #4 of 13
(487 views)
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It certainly wasn't what Gandalf meant. You can read Tolkien's own views on the use of eagles in his letters.
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Aug 6 2014, 12:22am
Post #5 of 13
(442 views)
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I'd love to give those letters a read, where can I find them?
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Aug 6 2014, 12:29am
Post #6 of 13
(438 views)
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Well, they are published and still in print I think.
[In reply to]
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You can certainly get a copy on Amazon.
He mentions them a few times mostly in connection with his frustrations at potential adapters of LOTR who do not share his view that the eagles are a deus ex machina that should not be used in any way beyond what is already in the text. He also references the idea he believes using the eagles is at odds with the idea of travelling secretly i.e. By strong implication that it would not have fitted the bill as a good plan for the Ring.
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dreamflower
Lorien
Aug 6 2014, 1:03am
Post #7 of 13
(423 views)
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Similar to the cartoon I've seen in which the Fellowship catapults the Ring into Mount Doom. And there have already been several hilarious fanfics that are a take on this idea, some of it brilliant crack!fic. But as a serious theory that would change my thoughts on the story? Not likely.
There are often complaints that the Eagles are deus ex machina*, as if that's a flaw. But the term means "god from the device", and in Arda the Eagles are the messengers of the gods, the plot device used in a special way to bring about the eucatastrophe that was the underpinning of JRRT's view of fantasy. He used the Eagles sparingly, and only for crucial events in which the use of the Eagles is symbolically significant as well as being a "plot contrivance".
*Autocorrect does not like this phrase. Took me four tries to get it to stick.
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Arannir
Valinor
Aug 6 2014, 8:05am
Post #8 of 13
(291 views)
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No... it does not change anything for me.
[In reply to]
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Both in the movies and the book this is only a loophole if one really wants it to be one, imho.
While a nice little "fanfiction" this has nothing to do with what Tolkien (or PJ) had in mind. Sounds more like a Nolan-esque twist.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Arannir
Valinor
Aug 6 2014, 8:09am
Post #9 of 13
(284 views)
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When you look at his whole work, yes.
But in TH and LotR they do appear quite often... and in the case of the Bot5A and the Morannon in a similar manner.
I hope PJ will be able to downplay their impact for the Bot5A... it just seems a bit like same old, same old (and no, that would not be different had the Eagles not been summoned by Gandalf with a moth... especially cinematically this was always going to be in danger of feeling repetitive... maybe it will help that PJ wants to include several beasts in the Bot5A).
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 6 2014, 8:53am
Post #10 of 13
(274 views)
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The whole thing is too clever by half, disregards Tolkien's actual plot and is based on ignorance of his use of language. 'Fly' in that context means 'run', 'escape while you can', 'go NOW' - and that's all it means when used as Gandalf used it.
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dreamflower
Lorien
Aug 6 2014, 1:07pm
Post #11 of 13
(223 views)
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When LOTR first came out, I would joke that the moth's name was Radagast. Now, of course, we've met Radagast, so he's not a moth. Perhaps the moth is one of Radagast's animal friends. It was a clever cinematic device, and a signal that Gandalf was sending a message for help. But I would have preferred if the Eagles in TH:AUJ had shown up without Gandalf's summoning them. Oh well.
It is going to be interesting to see how the Eagles are handled in BO5A, and whether PJ can keep their presence fresh in any way.
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FrostyLemon
The Shire
Aug 6 2014, 1:37pm
Post #12 of 13
(206 views)
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Surely 10,000+ orcs sitting in Mordor with bows, and 9 Nazgul with fellbeasts is the only explanation you need to push aside this eagle 'plot-hole'.
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Aug 6 2014, 1:46pm
Post #13 of 13
(206 views)
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