|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sebastian the Hedgehog
Rivendell
Aug 5 2014, 9:26pm
Post #1 of 13
(793 views)
Shortcut
|
I'm kind of confused about where the fading of the Elves comes from. I'm re-reading the Silmarillion right now, and it seems that the Doom of the Noldor made by Mandos upon their exile includes this concept for them (just the Noldor). But don't all Elves, not just the Noldor, eventually fade and return West? Is what Mandos spoke of something different, or just an emphasis for the sake of prophecy? And where is there an explanation for why the rest of the Elves fade?
(This post was edited by Sebastian the Hedgehog on Aug 5 2014, 9:27pm)
|
|
|
Maciliel
Valinor
Aug 6 2014, 11:18am
Post #2 of 13
(568 views)
Shortcut
|
just ruminating over something...
there's a ban on all elves travelling west to aman -- but only in their fear + hroar combination.
faded elves (were there any during the first, second, or third ages? seems possible, if the elves knew of fading and its consequences).... could they pass west? if they were faded, it suggests they did not want to, at least at first. but could hey have at a later time?
re why the elves fade... in HoME (in morgoth's ring, iirc), tolkien states that the fiery intensity of the fea would eventually consume the hroa in which it was housed.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
|
|
|
Sebastian the Hedgehog
Rivendell
Aug 6 2014, 1:42pm
Post #3 of 13
(554 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Is passing into the West different from fading then?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
You asked if there were any faded elves in the first three ages, or if any knew about fading. There was the company of Elves Sam saw in the beginning of FOTR, Arwen gave up her ability to pass West, Elrond and Galadriel left at the end of the Third Age...so is what they did something different from fading?
|
|
|
Maciliel
Valinor
Aug 6 2014, 5:04pm
Post #4 of 13
(542 views)
Shortcut
|
|
fading is different that passing into the west
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
passing into the west is different than fading. elves who passed into the west retained their hroar.
but it occurs to me.... elves were born into arda marred... so wouldn't their hroar be marred? the valar have no problem with marred hroar being in aman?
cheers ---
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
|
|
|
Sebastian the Hedgehog
Rivendell
Aug 6 2014, 5:22pm
Post #5 of 13
(529 views)
Shortcut
|
Fading is more of a curse, like with the Noldor, whereas passing into the West is just a choice among other Elves once they get tired of Middle-Earth?
|
|
|
cats16
Half-elven
Aug 7 2014, 3:22am
Post #7 of 13
(504 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Just watched this the other day!
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Well done. 
|
|
|
Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Aug 7 2014, 3:39am
Post #8 of 13
(520 views)
Shortcut
|
I'd say that 'fading' is more of a natural effect, accelerated by evil. It was always the plan of Eru for Men to dominate the World, learning from the Elves. How it would have played out is a mystery, but the very process is natural, a sort of way to let the Elves know their time is up. This process was one where the 'fea' consumed and dominated the 'hroa', as has been said, but that process could be intensified by grief and pain, thus one might fade sooner than they would normally. The process was very much at work in the TA, and Galadriel's ring held it in check within Lothlorien. So where were they to go when fading? I think that the trip West was the answer. In Valinor they would be in a relatively un-blighted place, and free from the evil that sapped their life energy. I also think that there was a better environment there that made it more suitable for immortals. There nothing died and change was slow, in contrast to the death and swiftly flowing years of M-E, so I think they would be more content there than anywhere else.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
|
|
|
HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
Aug 7 2014, 2:25pm
Post #9 of 13
(493 views)
Shortcut
|
But more the inherent evolution of the Elves or their destiny. As the previous poster notes, it was fated by Eru for the Elves to fade and to cede dominion of Middle Earth to Men. However, if the Elves do return West, they live in Bliss (heaven) for the rest of Time (or however long Arda lasts). Not so bad of a trade-off.
I do not know why any elves would remain in ME and fade. It seems an odd choice. But Elves also have free will and just like humans can make choices for a number of reasons. I often wonder whether Celeborn remained in ME and faded. What about Thrandruil? Maybe ego made them stay (rather be a king of faded faeries than subjects in Valinor).
|
|
|
Laineth
Lorien
Aug 9 2014, 8:43pm
Post #10 of 13
(459 views)
Shortcut
|
I'm pretty sure Celeborn sailed. The LotR prologue says,
There, though Elrond had departed, his sons long remained, together with some of the High-elven folk. It is said that Celeborn went to dwell there afer the departure of Galadriel; but there is no record of the day when at last he sought the Grey Havens, and with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth.
And Appendix A says,
"Lady Undómiel," said Aragorn, "the hour is indeed hard, yet it was made even in that day when we met under the white birches in the garden of Elrond where none now walk."
[cut]
Galadriel had passed away and Celeborn also was gone, and the land was silent.
And Appendix B says,
But after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn grew weary of his realm ans went to Imladris to dwell with the sons of Elrond.
Not to mention that both Galadriel and Celebrían are in the West! Talk about a good motivator. 
|
|
|
IdrilLalaith
Rivendell
Aug 10 2014, 2:21am
Post #11 of 13
(455 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Ego might be part of the reason
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
But Elves also have a deep connection to their land. Just based on the fact that more Elves didn't leave as soon as Sauron started to take power again indicates that they would rather stay where they all. I always thought it was interesting that Elrond didn't leave with Celebrían. He may have felt the need to stay as a leader of his people, but I'm sure he was also greatly attached to Imladris.
TolkienBlog.com
|
|
|
Cillendor
Lorien
Aug 12 2014, 6:46pm
Post #12 of 13
(429 views)
Shortcut
|
|
It may not necessarily be ego.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I think it was just a love for their world. Imagine pouring thousands of years into a home, and then being required to leave. You know that once you're gone, your home will deteriorate, and all of your work will be lost. From my experience, it's hard leaving a home after a mere decade. I can't imagine the anguish the Elves would've faced in deciding to leave their homes forever.
|
|
|
|
|
= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
