Our Sponsor Sideshow Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Dwarf Rings

Kagemusha
The Shire

Aug 5 2014, 12:39pm

Post #1 of 25 (1246 views)
Shortcut
Dwarf Rings Can't Post

Greetings,

In the EE of AUJ Gandalf frets in the White Council about the missing dwarf ring-bearer (Thrain) and the disapperence of the last dwarf ring. In the TE of DOS this subject wasn't even suggested. I'm curious if in the EE of DOS this thread will return, especially with Thrain's story being fleshed out, and what purpose this ring could serve in the overall story arc of Jackson's Hobbit adaptation. Does anyone have any ideas?

I had thought may be Thorin had the ring and was hiding it, hence the wraith music during the battle charge in AUJ, and this might have explained why Sauron is wasting time hunting Thorin. I'm not sure PJ would bother with so convoluted a subplot. Any ideas?


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Aug 5 2014, 1:34pm

Post #2 of 25 (910 views)
Shortcut
The Lord of the Rings wants the rings to come back to him. [In reply to] Can't Post

One of Gandalf's concerns is that if the Necromancer is indeed Sauron, tell tale evidence is that the Necromancer is seeking the last of the Dwarf rings.

When Gandalf meets Thrain the latter is both coherent and incoherent. During the moments when he is coherent he will be able to explain to Gandalf that the ring has been taken from him by the necromancer (conjecture) and his concern for his son if he makes the journey to Erebor (fact quoting R A).

In the original three film set up High Fells was in AUJ with less dialogue about the certainty of Sauron. However by moving it to DOS the extended High Fells gives certainty to Gandalfs supposition. We know before Gandalf arrives at D G N = S so the reveal by Thrain loses its dramatic impact and that maybe part of the reason why it was taken out to save time. However Thrain is important to PJ and co in presenting all the history of the House of Durin otherwise Antony Sher would not have been added in pick ups in May 2013.

So we may get the back story in the EE which will explain both the outcome of the ring and Thrain.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.

(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Aug 5 2014, 1:35pm)


Boromir Stark
Rivendell

Aug 5 2014, 1:40pm

Post #3 of 25 (905 views)
Shortcut
I feel like the Thrain subplot is one that'll be moved entirely to the EE's. [In reply to] Can't Post

How it'll play out though, I do not know.

Many feel that we'll see a flashback in the DOS EE showing Gandalf first meeting Thrain and getting the map and key. Others think this may not happen at all, and that Gandalf will meet Thrain in Dol Guldur.

I guess we'll just need to wait and see Crazy

Personally, I'd like to see a flashback during the Bree sequence at the start of DOS, showing Gandalf meeting Thrain in Moria and getting the map and key. Then later on in the movie, insert Thrain into Gandalf scenes in Dol Guldur, with him maybe helping Gandalf try to escape. He could then be killed or disappear somewhere just prior to Gandalf's duel with Sauron.


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Aug 5 2014, 1:47pm

Post #4 of 25 (884 views)
Shortcut
I don't think Moria makes obvious sense as the meeting place. [In reply to] Can't Post

Thorin says "my father came to see you" to Gandalf. This doesn't suggest Moria very obviously to me.


Shagrat
Gondor

Aug 5 2014, 1:54pm

Post #5 of 25 (877 views)
Shortcut
But... [In reply to] Can't Post

Where exactly would one 'come to meet Gandalf'? More often than not Gandalf comes to meet you, or there's some kind of 'chance meeting'.


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Aug 5 2014, 2:02pm

Post #6 of 25 (867 views)
Shortcut
Who knows? [In reply to] Can't Post

But of all the places where Gandalf might be to be met and have a chat, Moria seems among the least likely. Bree seems as likely as anywhere else I suppose?


Shagrat
Gondor

Aug 5 2014, 2:14pm

Post #7 of 25 (860 views)
Shortcut
I suppose... [In reply to] Can't Post

They might now eradicate that particular line if the opening sequence is structured differently. It's the one that's proving most problematic right now. Because if Thrain did go to see Gandalf, then surely he would have done before the battle of Azanulbizar. Otherwise he would have had to have carried both map and key into battle (not improbable I suppose), or have gone back to get them before wandering off (now this is more in line with the source, but we know that Thrain must go into Moria, so it would be difficult to reconcile).

EDIT: I don't own the Visual Companion for AUJ, but this was the key bit. You'd have to imagine they were told this rather than simply inventing it. I got it from this thread, where it was discussed to some extent: http://newboards.theonering.net/...rain%20moria;#525190


Quote
Thorin's bio tells us correctly that when Smaug came to Erebor, King Thror, his son Thrain and a few survivors escaped via the secret door, But it goes on to say that that Thorin's father Thrain "vanished in the dark halls of Khazad-dum," and in Balin's write-up it says that "he also accompanied Thrain on the doomed expedition to regain the kingdom of Khazad-dum, when his king was captured by Goblins and lost to his people."


Now this is interesting. Will there be a gap after the battle, and Thrain decide to go to reclaim Khazad-dum? Will he give the map and key to Gandalf then? Is this the part where he seeks Gandalf out, as mentioned in DoS? Will Thrain then go into Khazad Dum (let's say a few years have passed, and they assume Azog died), perhaps tell Balin to wait outside, and never re-emerge? Or might Balin look in first, be given the Dain Balrog moment, but the stubborn Thrain decides to go in anyway, not heeding Balin's advice?

I find this idea interesting. The only problem with this is that it seems odd up to now that Balin has never mentioned this episode - you'd imagine he'd feel some guilt over it.

I'd also add this - how are they going to let us know that Gandalf got the map and key from Thrain but at the same time ensure that Thorin doesn't learn of it? In the books of course Gandalf suddenly has that 'Eureka' moment after the meeting, which never sat well with me, and I don't expect it would with movie audiences either.


(This post was edited by Shagrat on Aug 5 2014, 2:22pm)


shadowdog
Rohan

Aug 5 2014, 3:08pm

Post #8 of 25 (818 views)
Shortcut
OK Question [In reply to] Can't Post

It has been a while since I read the books. From what I remember, Gandalf finds Thrain as he was dying years before The Hobbit and received the key and the map at that time. Don't remember about the ring.


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Aug 5 2014, 3:46pm

Post #9 of 25 (806 views)
Shortcut
Working backwards [In reply to] Can't Post

Thrain was incarcerated in D G and tortured (PB)
Azog has met Thrain (taunting of Thorin in AUJ).
Thrain fought a longside Thorin at Moria (RA) and was lost which was late filming with A S (Tweeted).
The only piece of the jig saw that is missing is the handing over of the key and the map which occurred presumably when Gandalf urged an attack on Erebor.

I agree with those whom cannot see the Battle of Azanulbizar as the point at which Thrain "came to see Gandalf". I think it was prior to the battle and it was done once Thrain refused to accept Gandalfs advice to retake Erebor. Though different from the appendices there is a logic to his refusal and then benigning handing over the Key and Map for others to pursue.

Given the Trilogy turns on the Key and the Map being handed from Thrain to Gandalf it would be odd to leave this on the cutting room floor altogether .

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.


Shagrat
Gondor

Aug 5 2014, 4:01pm

Post #10 of 25 (796 views)
Shortcut
I really like the idea of a gap between Azanulbizar and Thrain going missing [In reply to] Can't Post

So, like the source, the Dwarves don't really have enough left to repopulate Moria - it is a truly Pyrrhic victory. They continue to wander for several years, perhaps settling in Dunland. Thrain gets restless and decides to try Moria again, presuming Azog is dead and the Orcs long gone. Thorin tries to dissuade him but he goes off nonetheless, with Balin accompanying him. Perhaps on the way, or before, he entrusts the key and map to Gandalf, indicating that he no longer has any desire to go back to Erebor. Once they get to Moria, Balin looks in, gets the 'Dain sees Durin's Bane' moment. Tries to talk Thrain out of it. A stubborn Thrain wanders in nonetheless. Balin waits for him outside (rather like Nar with Thror), but he does not return. Assuming him lost and fearing to go within, he has no choice but to go back to Thorin and report what had happened. Little do they know of course that Azog was still alive and was licking his wounds in Moria. It is he and his Orcs who capture Thrain and bring him to the Necromancer at Dol Guldur, presumably on account of him having a Dwarven Ring of Power (this could be where the alliance between Azog and Sauron is first formed).

Obviously the main problem with all this is that there is no way they could convey it all in detail in the film. We imagine the Thrain flashbacks will encompass a minute, two at the absolute most. But there's no reason why they can't suggest something like this. Of course, at the point where Balin returns to Thorin it would end, and then pick up with the rest of what happened once Gandalf meets Thrain at Dol Guldur. So really they wouldn't need to show all that much in the prologue (they could squeeze it into a minute), and then pick up the last 30 seconds showing his capture later on in the film.

This might have been the original plan. However, why would they refilm Thrain's involvement at the battle of Azanulbizar if they still intended to do this? As such, I know think he'll end up chasing Azog into Moria, or absconding immediately after the battle. It wouldn't make a great deal of difference, but it would be more difficult to work the map and key angle in there.

Dear me this is all very confusing Crazy


Bombadil
Half-elven

Aug 5 2014, 4:15pm

Post #11 of 25 (791 views)
Shortcut
There is one tiny hint? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thorin says..."Rumor was that my father was
seen wandering the Wilds of Dunland...
I searched
but did NOt find him..."

THEORY:
Maybe that is where Gandalf found him?
Got the key & map, then...

Unlikely that Gandalf would want to reveal
these two important items in "The Prancing Pony"
with spys all around..so withheld them
until it was "Safe Under Hill".

THEORY: Gandalf & The White Council
Will find him as DG crumbles to the ground
Reveling the DEEP Dungeons...&
Thrain dies
in Galadriel's
arms..?

SUM?..THEORYzzz.. from that OLD
Weirdo in the OLD Forest



Crazy


(This post was edited by Bombadil on Aug 5 2014, 4:18pm)


Bombadil
Half-elven

Aug 5 2014, 4:28pm

Post #12 of 25 (780 views)
Shortcut
Post Script? [In reply to] Can't Post

THEORY 3:

THRAINzzz body will arrive
by Raddy's Bunny Sled jus'
before Thorin dies...

BOTH will have a Funeral
TOGETHER,
Thus restoring the Line of Kings
in Erebor...

May it Be?
May it be NOT?


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Aug 5 2014, 6:01pm

Post #13 of 25 (738 views)
Shortcut
Well the simplest explanation is.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Thrain went to see Gandalf prior Azanulbizar and gave him the map and key for safekeeping. Doesn't that address all issues?

In particular, given that Thorin knows his father went to see Gandalf, this addresses your last point. It also means that the meeting Thorin is referring to can't really be in Moria - it doesn't fit with the rest of the conversation.

Now, we cannot absolutely rule out a second meeting with Gandalf in Moria, but since it is unnecessary, and would take some hoops to explain Gandalf leaving Thrain alive to the mercy of goblins, it does seem to be far less likely.

On the Thrain Balin second trip bit, I'd be a bit dubious about setting too much store in a mention from a companion book. There are, as you point out, no clues in the films to this effect.


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Aug 5 2014, 6:04pm

Post #14 of 25 (728 views)
Shortcut
I agree with all this bar the last point. [In reply to] Can't Post

It really isn't of any importance to the films where Gandalf got the map and key handed over, any more than us seeing the moment Thror handed them to Thrain.

It's of interest to readers as it is one of the few strands we know is not as in the text but the films haven't elaborated on, but as a viewer it's almost completely irrelevant.


Bombadil
Half-elven

Aug 5 2014, 6:44pm

Post #15 of 25 (727 views)
Shortcut
Why did Sauron NOT find the Last Ring ON... THRAIN? [In reply to] Can't Post

Weird Theory
Number....4?


Thrain SWALLOWED... it....

Weird....enough fur
Youzzz Guyzzz?

Crazy


Dcole4
Rohan

Aug 5 2014, 7:26pm

Post #16 of 25 (706 views)
Shortcut
this! [In reply to] Can't Post

I also hope that we get a 1-2 minute flashback in the Bree sequence, showing Gandalf's encounter with Thrain where he gives him the map & key. I'm really curious to see how this all works out.


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Aug 5 2014, 8:28pm

Post #17 of 25 (696 views)
Shortcut
It was likely the ring, not the 'dragon sickness', that caused Thror's greed. [In reply to] Can't Post

First a question.
Is Thror one of the first dwarf ring bearers? If so, is he one of the seven at the start of The Fellowship of the Ring?


Now my highly speculative dwarf ring story-thread. (spoilers)
Flashback -
After Thror's death Thrain takes the map, the key and the ring from Thror.
Gandalf talks Thrain out of retaking Erebor. Thrain hands Gandalf the map and key, but secretly keeps the ring.
The necromancer then captures and imprisons Thrain and takes the ring from him.


Dol Guldur -
Gandalf discovers Thrain in Dol Guldur, his mind is broken after having the ring taken from him by force.


Gandalf heals Thrain's mind and learns about the ring. He realises that 'dragon sickness' doesn't exist and that Thror and Thrain had both succumb to the evil power of the ring. He realises Thorin is not under threat of catching 'dragon sickness' and could be a noble king. So he rushes back to Erebor to tell him.


Gandalf arrives to find that Thorin has become greedy, through a psychological self-fulfilling prophecy (Thorin believes he has dragon sickness and acts on it).


After the battle Gandalf explains to Thorin about the ring and the 'dragon sickness'. Thorin dies knowing that he could have been a noble king but was too greedy. Dain becomes king and we know he'll be good because the ring has been destroyed.


Shagrat
Gondor

Aug 5 2014, 8:39pm

Post #18 of 25 (684 views)
Shortcut
I agree with some of this [In reply to] Can't Post

But I wonder if it might have been better had Thrain given the ring to Thorin BEFORE he goes off. This would make sense for three reasons:

1) Thorin is clearly 'going mad' in these films anyway, so it makes sense that something should be causing that.

2) It would explain why the Necromancer is interested in Azog's pursuit of him

3) It would explain the use of the Ringwraith music in AUJ Tongue


I could see Thrain telling Gandalf that Azog, having captured him, had been ordered to bring him to Dol Guldur, as Sauron requested it. Of course, Sauron wouldn't tell Azog everything. But when he gets there, the ring isn't with him. And so poor Thrain has to undergo years of torture and interrogation. When Gandalf comes across him, he does indeed with his last words stress to Gandalf that the ring is behind the mental fragility of him and Thror, and it will destroy Thorin also. There is no 'Dragon Sickness', and Thorin is not destined to follow their path. Gandalf races off but is too late. He never gets the chance to tell Thorin, though discreetly removes the ring from his person when he passes. This could set up a last White Council scene in which the ring is brought up, tying in neatly with Sauron.

I don't know about all this. It's just a thought. But what is interesting is the inclusion of that brief White Council scene regarding the Dwarven Rings in the extended edition of AUJ. Surely they included this for a reason. It suggests that the ring arc might well run through the EE's only. And they could easily just add any ring references to the EE of BOTFA, especially if we presume that they'll want to end it quickly and save the additional endings for the extended version.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Aug 5 2014, 8:46pm

Post #19 of 25 (670 views)
Shortcut
Presumably, Sauron DID recover the Dwarf-ring from Thrain [In reply to] Can't Post

In Tolkien's canon, at least, the primary reason that Sauron captured Thrain was to retrieve his Dwarven Ring. It was one of the recovered Rings that Sauron offered the Dwarves during the War of the Ring.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 5 2014, 8:47pm)


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Aug 5 2014, 9:02pm

Post #20 of 25 (657 views)
Shortcut
Definitely, rather than presumably. It's in the appendices. [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Shagrat
Gondor

Aug 5 2014, 9:06pm

Post #21 of 25 (653 views)
Shortcut
That he did [In reply to] Can't Post

But the writers may wish to change that. I'm not saying I would go with Thorin having it but it is certainly a possibility.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Aug 5 2014, 9:27pm

Post #22 of 25 (649 views)
Shortcut
Yes. In the legendarium. [In reply to] Can't Post

What holds true for the books might not for the films.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Aug 5 2014, 9:38pm

Post #23 of 25 (644 views)
Shortcut
Oh I see. I thought you were referring to the text. [In reply to] Can't Post

 


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Aug 6 2014, 12:39am

Post #24 of 25 (632 views)
Shortcut
The answer to my question, if anyone's interested [In reply to] Can't Post

No, the ring was (rather obviously) not given to Thror.

It was the first of the dwarf rings and the last to be recovered by Sauron. It was originally given to Durin III by Celebrimbor.

It had no visible effects on its bearer but amplified their natural skills and caused them to become greedy and power hungry.


burgahobbit
Rohan


Aug 6 2014, 1:16pm

Post #25 of 25 (583 views)
Shortcut
I think [In reply to] Can't Post

Thrain had the ring, and Azog stole it from him!

Thus the Nazgul music is appropriate (no it still isn't) because Thorin was hunting down a ring-bearer!

That's my theory. In DOS EE: Thrain will simply say "Lost lost! The last of the seven. The last of the seven. It is lost. It is stolen."

We'll all think "Sauron!" because that's how it was in the book (I think). But no! In the BOTFA EE there will be a short scene during the final duel where Azog reveals to Thorin that he has the last of the Seven.

"I've found it is the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk, that keeps the darkness at bay. Simple acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps it is because I’m afraid, and he gives me courage.” - Gandalf the Grey.

"Do not be afraid Mithrandir, if ever you should need my help, I will come." - Lady Galadriel.

 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.