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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Chapter of the Week: King and Captain
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Aug 3 2014, 2:49am

Post #26 of 37 (241 views)
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Yeah, it struck me since Elves are supposed to have all this stillness to them. And of course Thranduil is the perfect Elf Heart


Just call me Lurker. Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.


Heart Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), Two, Three, Four (new! posted 16 Jul)


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk


Faleel
Rohan


Aug 3 2014, 3:27am

Post #27 of 37 (215 views)
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..... [In reply to] Can't Post

A lot of lines of dialogue are subtitled incorrectly, when Legolas balances orcrist he clearly says "Gondolin" ( the full line is apparently: but is subtitled as saying "This is an ancient Elvish blade. Forged by my kin."

This sword was made in Gondolin. Forged by the Noldor


Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Aug 3 2014, 3:36am

Post #28 of 37 (226 views)
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Quote
Guess Thranduil learned a thing or two from our majestic mountain king. Tongue

Nah, nothing thar ungracious dwarf can teach the Elvenking. But just as stiff-necked in their alpha-pride. He's had much longer to practise though, but of course it would have been interesting for him to see how it works for others, especially someone he can throw in the dungeons just to keep safe for a hundred years anyway Tongue




Just call me Lurker. Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.


Heart Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), Two, Three, Four (new! posted 16 Jul)


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk


Noria
Rohan

Aug 3 2014, 2:40pm

Post #29 of 37 (228 views)
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My thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

DOS Chapter of the Week: King and Captain

1. Do you think this makes a good transition from one scene to another?

-Well, at least we know what happened to Bilbo and the segue strongly implies that Thorin is referring to Bilbo as the Dwarves’ only hope. But what does he think Bilbo can do? Anyway, I quite like the transition, just enough to let us know that Bilbo is still around and what he’s up to and then we’re with Thranduil and Tauriel.


2. Did you see through this little “trick” or did you fell for it?

-I fell for it and believed for at least half a second that Thranduil had perceived Bilbo and was speaking to him. A classic PJ misdirect.


3. Why *did* Tauriel “linger in the shadows”?

-Maybe facing Thranduil is not easy, especially because he might think she had failed in her task, as he does in fact suggest. Or Thranduil sensed Bilbo as Tauriel was just arriving. Most likely it was just so PJ could play that little trick on us.


4. Thranduil has been described as an isolationist. What do you make of this characteristic of his and the way it is portrayed?

-It’s an interesting trait and provides him with a complexity of character lacking in book Thranduil, as well as a story of their own for the Elves of Mirkwood. The writers have to be careful not to even indirectly reference the story of Oropher at the Last Alliance; movie Thranduil’s isolationism has to stem from other causes, which we see in his scene with Thorin. His discussion with Tauriel makes Thranduil seem uncaring and something of a jerk and seems to disillusion Tauriel. She appears shocked by his attitude so maybe it never came up until the Elvenrealm was under attack.


5. Note how it’s Thranduil, not Tauriel, who hears Bilbo leave/senses the presence of a third person in the room. Is it purely a coincidence or do you think it is intended to have a greater meaning? If so, what?

-Don’t know, but Thranduil is old with a vast amount of experience. Does it indicate that Thranduil is more perceptive than most other beings? He certainly guessed pretty easily what Thorin was up to. Will Thranduil be the one to catch Bilbo outside Erebor?


6. Do you think Tauriel has feelings for Legolas? What can you tell from her reaction to Thranduil’s comments and command?

-From this scene on its own I would have said that Tauriel has feelings for Legolas. When Thranduil brings up their relationship, she tries to deflect his attention to the professional relationship and then goes to that passive-aggressive way of asking if Thranduil would approve.

-To me Tauriel looks pleased at the thought that Legolas cares for her and then hurt at Thranduil’s following words. Maybe if Thranduil had favored her in the past, it’s painful to hear him actually say out loud that she is not worthy. Then she looks resolute, perhaps because she accepts his words or else she’s saying to herself “We’ll see about that!”


7. Why is Thranduil against the idea of his son “pledging himself” to a Silvan elf?

-Because he’s an elitist snob and like all that type, thinks that what he is, a Sindar from Beleriand, is a lot better than what she is, a “native” Silvan Elf.


8. How does this relationship play out in this scene? Does it at all? How would you describe the relationship between Tauriel and Thranduil and their attitudes towards one another?

-It seems to me that Tauriel and Thranduil like and respect each other, as much as Thranduil would respect an inferior. Tauriel seems comfortable enough with Thranduil but is wary when the talk turns to Legolas. She’s not afraid to express her opinion to a degree though she is always respectful. Thranduil is so chilly that it’s hard to know how he feels about Tauriel because even when he introduces the subject of Legolas’ praise of her work, he is actually just warning her off his son. He certainly doesn't seem to care if his demeaning words hurt her, or maybe he intends them to do so to remind her of her place. When Thranduil pours himself another drink without offering her anything, it emphasizes Tauriel’s subordinate status. Not that she appears to expect it, probably because she was there on business.

-I don’t see any sign of Tauriel being under Thranduil’s wing, except that Legolas says so later. We don’t know enough about the society of the Wood Elves to know if there is anything unusual about her position.

- I think that by the end of this scene, Tauriel has been disillusioned on a couple of fronts: first, by Thranduil’s callous and cynical isolationist policy, which to a person like her might seem cowardly, and second on a personal level by his rejection of her as a mate for Legolas (whether she wants Legolas or not). That might leave her all the more open to a connection with the outside world through Kili.


9. Do you think will see further interaction between these two characters in BOFA? Under what circumstances might this happen?

-Surely there will be a resolution to the story of Tauriel’s rejection of Thranduil’s policies and Legolas having joined her in her fight. Maybe Thranduil initially leaves his cave to find them.


10. Any thoughts on (a) the performances of the actors, (b) costumes and/or scenery, (c) score, (d) cinematography, editing, lighting, visual effects etc.?

-Both performances seem spot on to me. Evangeline Lilly has the heavy lifting really, as she runs a gamut of emotions she has to hide. Tauriel paces as she speaks, here and later; unlike most of the Elves we have met so far, she seems like a restless character. Lee Pace is great as well; the coldness of his repudiation of everyone outside his realm seems to soften when he speaks of Legolas growing fond of Tauriel. But as with Thorin, it was not sincere because he is just leading up to the warning.

-Like the rest of the Wood Elves’ realm, Thranduil’s private quarters are beautiful. I love the carving resembling tree roots and boles, the pool, the sparse but beautiful furnishings. The whole open concept thing seems to extend everywhere and Thranduil's rooms seem surprisingly open and accessible, almost like an extended landing on a staircase. Perhaps the personality of the “ill-tempered king” is enough to ensure his privacy.

-Thranduil looks great in every beautiful costume he wears, even this tent thing, which I must admit makes me laugh. I like Tauriel’s outfit too. It looks good but is practical and she seems to add or subtract things, like her leather armour, as she needs them.

-The soft rendition of Thranduil’s theme that starts when the Elvenking begins to speak about his realm enduring changes to an equally soft version of Tauriel’s theme when she and Thranduil are discussing Legolas. Those are both lovely pieces of music.

-The whole sequence looked and sounded fine to me. I can’t tell what is green screen and what is practical set, nor so I care as long as it looks good to me. The same with special effects.

Thanks BlackFox


BlackFox
Valinor


Aug 3 2014, 8:34pm

Post #30 of 37 (190 views)
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Thank you for the thorough answers, Noria! [In reply to] Can't Post

It's always a pleasure reading your insightful posts. As usually, you pointed out some very interesting things:

Quote
The writers have to be careful not to even indirectly reference the story of Oropher at the Last Alliance; movie Thranduil’s isolationism has to stem from other causes, which we see in his scene with Thorin.


Quote
Thranduil pours himself another drink without offering her anything, it emphasizes Tauriel’s subordinate status.


Quote
I think that by the end of this scene, Tauriel has been disillusioned on a couple of fronts: first, by Thranduil’s callous and cynical isolationist policy, which to a person like her might seem cowardly, and second on a personal level by his rejection of her as a mate for Legolas (whether she wants Legolas or not). That might leave her all the more open to a connection with the outside world through Kili. (my emphasis)



“Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake.” - Henry David Thoreau


Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Aug 4 2014, 1:37pm

Post #31 of 37 (152 views)
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LoL [In reply to] Can't Post

Riven Delve, that is gold! It's a pity we missed you in the previous CHOW.


I'm a lurker. Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.


Heart Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), Two, Three, Four (new! posted 16 Jul)


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk


(This post was edited by Lurker in the Mirk on Aug 4 2014, 1:38pm)


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Aug 4 2014, 5:18pm

Post #32 of 37 (147 views)
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Real life does tend to get in the way [In reply to] Can't Post

but I really enjoy the CHOWs and try to get to the ones I can! Smile


In Reply To

It's a pity we missed you in the previous CHOW.




“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”



Noria
Rohan

Aug 4 2014, 7:16pm

Post #33 of 37 (153 views)
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No thank you. [In reply to] Can't Post

Seriously, what I like about CHOW is that it makes me think more deeply about each scene of the movie than I probably would have otherwise. The excellent questions and answers from the other participants are great for that.


Bernhardina
Rohan


Aug 5 2014, 11:02am

Post #34 of 37 (133 views)
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1. Do you think this makes a good transition from one scene to another?

I do, because you get what Thorin means when it cuts to Bilbos face.


2. Did you see through this little “trick” or did you fell for it?

I spoiled it with this, watching the scene from the B-roll footage before I went to see the movie. So I already knew this line was in the scene. I did not know for sure that it would be meant for Bilbo, as he was not on set while they were shooting, but the supsicion sort of came to me. I realized it so I was prepared for it when I watched the movie. Shame on me, spoiling it all like that!!



3. Why *did* Tauriel “linger in the shadows”?

She was secretely admiring the elven king from a distance. Obviously!


4. Thranduil has been described as an isolationist. What do you make of this characteristic of his and the way it is portrayed?

I think it is very clear that this is the case, but I also like that they show how he has had experiences with dragons in that scene with Thorin, as it shows he wasn't always like this.


5. Note how it’s Thranduil, not Tauriel, who hears Bilbo leave/senses the presence of a third person in the room. Is it purely a coincidence or do you think it is intended to have a greater meaning? If so, what?

I think it is a nice touch, because it makes you think of Thranduil as extremely sensitive and not easily fooled. And VERY experienced.


6. Do you think Tauriel has feelings for Legolas? What can you tell from her reaction to Thranduil’s comments and command?

Judging from her reaction: Yes. She has feelings for Legolas. It is quite obvious in this scene if you are going on EL's performance alone. How she looks away when Thranduil says he noticed this. How sad she looks when he says he will not accept it. It's not all black and white - but this is pretty black and white in my opinion :P


7. Why is Thranduil against the idea of his son “pledging himself” to a Silvan elf?

Either because he thinks Legolas deserves better, which seems a bit unlikely given that there are so many Silvan elves in Mirkwood - how is Legolas supposed to find and love someone who is not? I think it is more likely that these words are meant for Tauriel personally. Like, Thranduil uses this opportunity to say to her that SHE is not the one for Legolas. Something about her is not suitable, but I doubt it is just because she is Silvan, I think Thranduil uses this as an excuse.


8. How does this relationship play out in this scene? Does it at all? How would you describe the relationship between Tauriel and Thranduil and their attitudes towards one another?

I think it is hard to say what sort of relationship these two have from this scene only. She obviously has some sort of influence as she get to report to him directly. He obviously discuss personal matters with her since he is mentioning his son. But I don't see that they are close. I feel like Thranduil will not allow it.


9. Do you think will see further interaction between these two characters in BOFA? Under what circumstances might this happen?

Well, I hope so and I think so. Tauriel will probably report to him about the events that took place after she left the Woodland Realm.


10. Any thoughts on (a) the performances of the actors, (b) costumes and/or scenery, (c) score, (d) cinematography, editing, lighting, visual effects etc.?

a) Both of them did a great job!
b) I think the scenery is a little boring, to be honest. It does not loke like a place where people live, it is just so few things around. The costume for Thranduil is great, I wish they had made Tauriels costume look a little less like something made for cosplay.
c) The score is good and not over the top.
d) Good angles on both characters, especially since they move around a lot. I would have liked it to be more dark in this scene.


12. Is there anything else you’d like to say about this chapter? Any additional comments or observations?

I like the scene because not only does it show Thranduils point of view and Tauriels questioning nature, but also their relationship and how Legolas comes into the story.



(This post was edited by Bernhardina on Aug 5 2014, 11:11am)


BlackFox
Valinor


Aug 5 2014, 3:04pm

Post #35 of 37 (122 views)
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Thanks for answering, Bernhardina! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
She was secretely admiring the elven king from a distance. Obviously!

Duh! Laugh

In Reply To
I think it is more likely that these words are meant for Tauriel personally. Like, Thranduil uses this opportunity to say to her that SHE is not the one for Legolas. Something about her is not suitable, but I doubt it is just because she is Silvan, I think Thranduil uses this as an excuse.

Yes, this possibility has crossed my mind too. But what could that "something" be? Her "meddling" nature, relative "restlessness" for an elf, maybe?


“Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake.” - Henry David Thoreau


Kerewyn
Rohan


Aug 7 2014, 10:12pm

Post #36 of 37 (104 views)
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Thrall arriving late ... busy week... [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Do you think this makes a good transition from one scene to another?

Totally. I do like a good verbal link into a following scene, a visual cue taking place of explanation.

2. Did you see through this little “trick” or did you fell for it?

I utterly fell for it. I think I even gasped.


3. Why *did* Tauriel “linger in the shadows”?

I can only suspect nervousness. Perhaps she is always a little nervous or awed when reporting to her king… or she feels accountable for the continued presence of spiders in the forest, even though she has done what was ordered. You can see the accusation of a job possibly not done, and her defence and explanation. I wonder also if she is dwelling on the dwarves’ captivity – she has spoken to Kili at this point, and this slowed down her pace to make her report. (still thinking about this, I know I ‘linger’ when I am deep in thought on something)


4. Thranduil has been described as an isolationist. What do you make of this characteristic of his and the way it is portrayed?

It does really come across strongly with his ‘other lands’ line, because the sensible thing to do would be to eliminate the spider’s nest, even if it’s at the ‘neighbour’s.’ His refusal to do so shows up the extremity of his stance. It reminds me of someone who is crippled by a phobia, refusing point blank to do something which will ultimately be for their own good. Afraid? Stubborn? Are those two essential elements of isolationism? In regards to the spider solution, I would question his kingship, except that I -- don’t dare question his kingship. And that’s the way he rules.


5. Note how it’s Thranduil, not Tauriel, who hears Bilbo leave/senses the presence of a third person in the room. Is it purely a coincidence or do you think it is intended to have a greater meaning? If so, what?

I think it increases the movie tension for newbies – will Bilbo be discovered? - linking back to the earlier ‘linger in the shadows’ moment, and demonstrating this elven intuition. Maybe setting up Thranduil as a superior being to Tauriel.

6. Do you think Tauriel has feelings for Legolas? What can you tell from her reaction to Thranduil’s comments and command?

Yes I think she does. I feel her line “I do not think…” comes from a slightly flustered modesty, that mild denial that comes from having feelings and possibly being a little confused about them.

The truncated early trailer snippets from this scene gave me initially a different impression of Tauriel and Legolas’s relationship. The trailer was edited so that we heard only: “Legolas has grown very fond of you. Don’t give him hope where there is none.” I imagined an unrequited love story to come.


7. Why is Thranduil against the idea of his son “pledging himself” to a Silvan elf?
I have little knowledge (yet) of the Elven branches / races, but my understanding is that the Silvans are perceived to be a lower ‘class’, and so it would be like any king’s reservation about a royal family member marrying below his station.

8. How does this relationship play out in this scene? Does it at all? How would you describe the relationship between Tauriel and Thranduil and their attitudes towards one another?

That’s an interesting quote. Initially it could imply that Thranduil has been like a father figure to her – until you see them interact, and their relationship seems more at arm’s length than that. So I imagine ‘taken under his wings’ was that he ensured she was cared for, he saw her potential talents, and found a placement for her in the kingdom where they would be nurtured and developed.
Tauriel no doubt has a great respect for her king, and she may be ‘closer’ to him than many other elves, but they don’t seem ‘close’ as such – except that Thranduil obviously keeps quite a watch on her and is able to comment so.

9. Do you think will see further interaction between these two characters in BOFA? Under what circumstances might this happen?

Hmm, I don’t think that we will somehow. I feel that we might see interaction between Thranduil and Legolas and that Tauriel will be there, but they may not speak.


10. Any thoughts on (a) the performances of the actors, (b) costumes and/or scenery, (c) score, (d) cinematography, editing, lighting, visual effects etc.?

The scenery: Thranduil’s beautifully-vased orchid has been pointed out in the background in this room, and it seems like an ideal hobby for this character. I also love the jacuzzi pool and the organic openness of his chamber. While also reflecting the openness of the throne room and probably the architecture throughout the kingdom, it could give the impression that he is ‘approachable’ and/or allow him a greater view across his inner kingdom, even while in repose. It’s an elven thing no doubt, not the need to close off in utter privacy as a Man might prefer.

There’s a particular screen shot Thranduil’s robe contains flickers of silver and mauve which echo the silvery living pillars around him. It’ s a voluminous robe this one, and more likely to be worn when he’s chillaxing, as I doubt it would be that good to stride about in, though he would surely fling it off in a fabulous way if an emergency were to arise. Heart

'People don't know where I begin and latex ends, which has always been an ambition for me.' (Martin Freeman)

(This post was edited by Kerewyn on Aug 7 2014, 10:16pm)


BlackFox
Valinor


Aug 7 2014, 10:29pm

Post #37 of 37 (101 views)
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I'm glad you could make it, Kerewyn! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It reminds me of someone who is crippled by a phobia, refusing point blank to do something which will ultimately be for their own good.

Excellent comparison. I imagine it's the shadows of his past at work here. He's been burnt before. Both literally and figuratively.

Thanks for the answers!


“As he caught his footing, his head fell back, and the Milky Way flowed down inside him with a roar.” - Yasunari Kawabata, Snow Country

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