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Bishop
Gondor
Jul 31 2014, 1:06am
Post #1 of 15
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How will Azog and Bolg storylines play out?
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I think some of the shifts Jackson has made over the course of making these films has been interesting, if not sometimes a bit perplexing. For example Azog appearing in the Mirkwood attack in the trailer but then replaced by Bolg in the theatrical release. It just got me wondering what kind of endgame is in store for both characters in terms of overall narrative arc. I'm also curious if the split duties between them occurred because Jackson realized he would need two substantial characters handling large scale events simultaneoulsy. I'd love to hear any theories/speculation about where the story may lead them.
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Arannir
Valinor
Jul 31 2014, 7:54am
Post #2 of 15
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... the orchestration and composition of the Battle of the Five Armies (as in the battle, not the movie) will have to prove that it was worth-while to have both in these movies.
Until now they served their purpose and are fantastically designed and great CGI, but one wonders why Azog wasn't just Bolg (the switch of the two as leader of the hunting party was not important, really).
Still are memorable Orc, especially Azog who is a servant of Sauron but obviously not yet as much of a minion as those we see in LotR. He does not seem too happy with some of his Master's decisions and orders - which is interesting and in-line with some of the "thinking" of the Orcs we can also see in LotR (the book).
But back to the battle... since we have so many heroes in the movies who are likely to fight in different areas of the battle-field, it will indeed be good to have more recognizable villains to balance that out - with different dynmaics between them.
There are several relationships between heroes and villains that should be adressed one way or the other during the battle:
In particular:
Thorin and Azog
Beorn and Azog
Legolas and Bolg
Dwarven Royal Family vs. Orc Royal Family
Dain and Azog (not really a dynamic, more of a lore connection that might apeace some who would have rather seen Azog die in Dimrill Dale).
If these are adressed and used to give the battle structure and focus, it would make it worth-while to have both Azog and Bolg as established characters beyond the revenge story-line.
And with adressed I do not necessarily mean that they have to kill each other (here I still hope that everyone kills the character in the end that he also killed in the book) - but that there are episodes, glimpses, looks, short fights, etc that simply add both weight, structure and meaning to the battle-scenes.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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boldog
Rohan
Jul 31 2014, 8:36am
Post #3 of 15
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Is an explanation, or a reason behind their hateful vendetta against the dwarves, particularly of Durins Lineage. Why the dwarves, and not elves, or men?
At first the most likely motif, was Azogs revenge for his loss of forearm, and Humiliation at Azanulbizar. But then in DOS, we see Bolg, who shares the same hate as his father, towards the dwarves. Surely he is not going to hold a vendetta against them, over his fathers amputated limb. There must be something else to it, and i pray that we can get even the slightest mention of it in the next film, even if it is just 2 seconds!!
I believe that Azog and Bolg are possibly the only two orcs who may be an exception to the typical evil nature of an orc. Azog had brought up his son, well enough that he actually acknowledges him as his own son. That is a first for any orc. And Bolg sets out to march upon Erebor in vengeance of his fathers death. How many orcs will Try and avenge another dead orc? Most will just forget about the dead one. This gives me hope that Orcs, have some traits of good in them, even if it is small aspects.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jul 31 2014, 9:22am
Post #4 of 15
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I would think someone chopping off your dads arm and nearly killing him might well be enough to leave you cross with them!
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boldog
Rohan
Jul 31 2014, 9:27am
Post #5 of 15
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I dont think an orc, is really going to care about his fathers lost arm  Loss of limb would be a common thing in orc society. Something major must have happened that really pissed them off
I believe that Azog and Bolg are possibly the only two orcs who may be an exception to the typical evil nature of an orc. Azog had brought up his son, well enough that he actually acknowledges him as his own son. That is a first for any orc. And Bolg sets out to march upon Erebor in vengeance of his fathers death. How many orcs will Try and avenge another dead orc? Most will just forget about the dead one. This gives me hope that Orcs, have some traits of good in them, even if it is small aspects.
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Hanzkaz
Rohan
Jul 31 2014, 9:33am
Post #6 of 15
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Well, Bolg hates Dwarves anyway.
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And Bolg sets out to march upon Erebor in vengeance of his fathers death. How many orcs will Try and avenge another dead orc?
Also, as Azog's son, he is associated with him. The injury (or death) of Azog could be taken as an insult to his pride and reputation.
It's like someone from the other team beating your best player. You might not like the guy, but you really don't like the other side going around boasting about it.
___________________________________________________
From the makers of 'The Lord of the Rings' comes the sequel to Peter Jackson's Hobbit Trilogy -
'The War in the North, Part I : The Sword in the Tomb'.
(This post was edited by Hanzkaz on Jul 31 2014, 9:37am)
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Arannir
Valinor
Jul 31 2014, 9:49am
Post #7 of 15
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... they fight for whole kingdoms.
Both races compete for living space in the mountains.
That has led to ancient feuds and battles.
I thought Dimrill Dale already made it quite clear that the "issues" between the two races (apart from them being enemies anyway) has something to do with interests in the same areas, as well as atrocities committed.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Hanzkaz
Rohan
Jul 31 2014, 9:59am
Post #8 of 15
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The Orcs did conquer Gundabad -
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- the waking place of the first Durin and made it their own. Having your enemy ruling from what was the sacred place of your ancestors wouldn't have gone down well in the first place.
___________________________________________________
From the makers of 'The Lord of the Rings' comes the sequel to Peter Jackson's Hobbit Trilogy -
'The War in the North, Part I : The Sword in the Tomb'.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jul 31 2014, 10:00am
Post #9 of 15
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Well Bolg cares about the death of the Great Goblin
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Enough to stump up a war and he was no relation. Orcs hate pretty much everyone anyway but if you are going to war over someone up the street, I shouldn't think there is anything odd about wanting revenge on the dwarf who de-limbed and mostly killed your father.
I think you might be seeking a more complicated explanation than is necessary.
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Bishop
Gondor
Jul 31 2014, 4:15pm
Post #10 of 15
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Thanks for this and the other interesting responses. I think you raise some excellent points.
I also agree with some others that a more in depth look into the foundation of hatred they have for the Dwarves would be interesting, but I don't know that Jackson will go there. I'm thinking that the feud as presented in AUJ prologue is going to be all we get on that front.
However, it occurred to me that something unexpected may happen earlier in the film. We know from the previous film and the trailer that Azog is leading a massive army towards Erabor, so he's going to be a final player in the battle. But we don't know much about Bolg. I'm wondering if Bolg may die early in the film, possibly at the hands of Legolas, and further enraging Azog.
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Rickster
Rohan
Jul 31 2014, 8:27pm
Post #11 of 15
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also important is what will we see more of Sauron
What will be Sauroman's role..
wilkl we see more about the serpents of the North
How will Smaug fall from the sky
what will Gandalf know already about the ring
will we see Dwarfs enter Moria
Will other rings be shown
Will the Long Lady Elf know about the Hobbit and his secret
what will Thorin's last words be
will the Elfs have their starlight stones
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jul 31 2014, 9:57pm
Post #12 of 15
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Beorn killing Bolg...
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Arannir
Valinor
Jul 31 2014, 10:00pm
Post #13 of 15
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... when I posted it I knew that I had one more in my mind before typing it down. Simply coulnd't get it together anymore. Of course! Thanks ;)
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 1 2014, 2:55pm
Post #14 of 15
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I think that Azog might be the first, major named character to die in the actual battle--either by Dain or Thorin. Bolg will arrive in time to witness his father's demise and will redouble his efforts to reach the heart of the fighting.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Anduinel
The Shire
Aug 9 2014, 3:54pm
Post #15 of 15
(392 views)
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...that if we do get a reason for Azog's hatred of Durin's line, it'll be tied into Bolg. When I actually got a good look at Bolg on his own two feet in Dol Gadur, my first impression was that he'd been pretty horrifically maimed some years ago. Some if may be self-scarification (a la Azog's whorls), but that some of that metal implanted under his skin appeared to have been holding him together at some point, particularly around the skull, and been healed over as time passed. Given some of the themes running through the film (fathers and sons, hate building upon hate, old dues coming full circle), Azog carrying a grudge because Thror maimed his son (who would have probably just been Random Orc #3687 to a Dwarf) in battle would fit in pretty well as an explanation. I'm not sure how much gravitas such an explanation could actually lend the story, given how the party's been mowing down orcs and goblins like crazy the last two films and with more to come, but it would still fit thematically.
Universal Constant: Those who are quickest to claim that artists should toughen up and learn to take criticism will themselves be delicate flowers unable to tolerate any difference of opinion.
(This post was edited by Anduinel on Aug 9 2014, 3:55pm)
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