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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Speculation on death (Possible Spoilers)

redgiraffe
Rohan

Jul 30 2014, 1:47pm

Post #1 of 20 (845 views)
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Speculation on death (Possible Spoilers) Can't Post

I don't think this is really anything major. I don't know why I thought of this idea. I guess it just kind of popped into my head. But I've got this feeling that Thorin might die saving Bilbo from almost being killed. I wouldn't be that surprised if the filmmakers were to change it like that because it would kind of come full circle from Bilbo saving Thorin at the end of film one, and would also show a slight redemption on Thorin's part at the end. I haven't really thought about what that would mean as far as being true to Thorin's character in the book. I'm not saying I like the idea or dislike it. I'm just simply speculating that it might be a possibility.

So what is everyone's thoughts on that? Do you think the filmmakers might do something like that? What would be your reaction to seeing Thorin get mortally wounded trying to save Bilbo?

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


Shagrat
Gondor

Jul 30 2014, 1:56pm

Post #2 of 20 (464 views)
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Yep [In reply to] Can't Post

I've thought this for some time. A touch reminiscent of Boromir for sure, but it would be devastatingly effective, especially on the back of the pair's last likely interaction prior to this point. From the looks of things Bilbo will face danger during the battle and perhaps might not be knocked out, at least not for a while.

Some would say it would 'redeem' Thorin. I'm not necessarily in the camp that he'll need redeeming (I think Bilbo gets let off the hook far too easily by people for what he does, but that's another matter). I just think such an act would show his true qualities as a character, his heroism and that deep down of course he does care about Bilbo deeply.


(This post was edited by Shagrat on Jul 30 2014, 1:58pm)


Hanzkaz
Rohan

Jul 30 2014, 2:09pm

Post #3 of 20 (438 views)
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I was thinking it might be something like that - [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
But I've got this feeling that Thorin might die saving Bilbo from almost being killed.


It could be a scene where he has a chance of final vengeance over Azog and saving his friend's life, and he chooses what he realises is most important to him.

___________________________________________________


From the makers of 'The Lord of the Rings' comes the sequel to Peter Jackson's Hobbit Trilogy -
'The War in the North, Part I : The Sword in the Tomb'.



(This post was edited by Hanzkaz on Jul 30 2014, 2:11pm)


dormouse
Half-elven


Jul 30 2014, 2:30pm

Post #4 of 20 (419 views)
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Well.... [In reply to] Can't Post

It's certainly possible, and the idea that somebody will die saving Bilbo seems to be cropping up a lot, whether Kili, in another thread, or, as you suggest, Thorin.

Thinking about it my guess would be that they won't go that way with either dwarf simply because I think it has rather odd implications for the story. Whichever dwarf it was, it would make Bilbo the (innocent) cause of his death. It would also create a practical problem - what's Bilbo doing out in the middle of a battlefield and what's going to happen to him after his rescuer has been killed?

I think it's extremely unlikely that Bilbo will be knocked out while wearing the Ring and so miss most of the battle but I'm guessing that he'll still be more of an onlooker, because it seems to work better that way - and hasn't Philippa Boyens said this film will be closer to the book? Or did I just make that up.... Don't know. My betting is that it won't happen that way, but who knows?


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jul 30 2014, 2:51pm

Post #5 of 20 (409 views)
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Please, no. [In reply to] Can't Post

That would ruin the entire film for me, as it's completely against the heart of the story. If Kili or Fili die that way, that's fine, but definitely not Thorin. Thorin and Bilbo's big moment of reconciliation comes after the battle with that wonderful little speech by Thorin.


dormouse
Half-elven


Jul 30 2014, 3:24pm

Post #6 of 20 (391 views)
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To be honest, I wouldn't want to see Fili or Kili die that way either... [In reply to] Can't Post

Seems to me Bilbo's place is to be the onlooker, set apart from events, and Thorin's company should be at the heart of the battle. That's how I'd do it. And we do know that Thorin's last speech was filmed.

But the idea of someone saving Bilbo has come up several times in the last few days. I'm not keen on it, but I suppose it's possible.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jul 30 2014, 3:41pm

Post #7 of 20 (360 views)
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Yeah, I'd rather it not be Kili or Fili either [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that Bilbo's place is as an onlooker. I don't think PJ will let him completely sit out the battle like in the book, but I really hope he won't be front and center either.


minnymomo
The Shire

Jul 30 2014, 4:08pm

Post #8 of 20 (326 views)
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Sound possible to me [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes I think so too about the Thorin saving Bilbo thing and his redemption. I mean the film always enhance and dramatize the story from the book. I think if they wanna make Thorin’s heroism obviously show, they have to add something other than lying dead and a farewell speech.


Hanzkaz
Rohan

Jul 30 2014, 4:40pm

Post #9 of 20 (323 views)
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I'm assuming that if it was Thorin - [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Whichever dwarf it was, it would make Bilbo the (innocent) cause of his death. It would also create a practical problem - what's Bilbo doing out in the middle of a battlefield and what's going to happen to him after his rescuer has been killed?


- while mortally wounded, he won't die straight away. Perhaps Dain arrives in time to slay Azog just before he makes the finishing blow. That's how I'd like to see it play out.

I can see Thorin then continuing to battle on besides his nephews until his encounter with Bolg.

I don't think movie Bilbo will be a bystander in the battle. He'd almost certainly want to help his former companions.

___________________________________________________


From the makers of 'The Lord of the Rings' comes the sequel to Peter Jackson's Hobbit Trilogy -
'The War in the North, Part I : The Sword in the Tomb'.



(This post was edited by Hanzkaz on Jul 30 2014, 4:45pm)


Nolane
Bree

Jul 30 2014, 4:43pm

Post #10 of 20 (317 views)
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Bilbo getting "knocked out" in a movie will not work [In reply to] Can't Post

It was bad enough in the book. In a movie it will simply not work. I am pretty sure Peter Jackson will change it, and it will be a good change. I never liked Bilbo missing the entire battle in the first place. As to Thorin getting mortally wounded trying to save Bilbo, that would also work well in a movie, even it if strays from the book. Purists may disagree, but Peter Jackson is making a movie that is aimed at everyone- not just purists.


dormouse
Half-elven


Jul 30 2014, 5:42pm

Post #11 of 20 (305 views)
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Purist? Moi?.... [In reply to] Can't Post

That might make a few people chuckle round here! Sly

I don't mind changes to the book - I'm enjoying these films very much, changes an' all.

I agree that Bilbo is likely to witness the battle. To have the main character knocked out and invisible would be odd. It just seems to me that even in the film, so far as we know how it's shaping up at the moment, it's unlikely that Bilbo will be in the thick of the battle, where I'd expect Thorin's company to be.

Depends how they play the story, of course. Will he take the Arkenstone to Bard and Thranduil? If that sequence is followed, he won't be anywhere near Thorin - and the idea of one small hobbit finding his way across a crowded battlefield seems to me rather unlikely. Will they play it some other way, so that he emerges from the Mountain with Thorin's company? Dunno.

All I'm saying is that if one of the dwarves dies saving Bilbo they will then have to solve the problems of what becomes of Bilbo in the middle of the battlefield, facing the likes of Bolg, and how will he cope with having been (inadvertently) responsible for the death of a friend. Whoever they're aiming the film at, those are narrative consequences of putting Bilbo in that position.


(This post was edited by dormouse on Jul 30 2014, 5:43pm)


redgiraffe
Rohan

Jul 30 2014, 7:26pm

Post #12 of 20 (239 views)
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Oh geez [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
That would ruin the entire film for me, as it's completely against the heart of the story. If Kili or Fili die that way, that's fine, but definitely not Thorin. Thorin and Bilbo's big moment of reconciliation comes after the battle with that wonderful little speech by Thorin.


I hope I am not creating any anxiety in anyone with this post/speculation. I don't really know how I would feel about it if it happened like that with Thorin. And that's why I'm glad you brought your opinion to the table. That's what I would also like to see from others discussing this: would it go against the heart/spirit/moral of the story? So thanks for your input. And remember this is just completely out of the box speculation.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


redgiraffe
Rohan

Jul 30 2014, 7:29pm

Post #13 of 20 (243 views)
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onlooker [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Seems to me Bilbo's place is to be the onlooker, set apart from events, and Thorin's company should be at the heart of the battle. That's how I'd do it. And we do know that Thorin's last speech was filmed.

But the idea of someone saving Bilbo has come up several times in the last few days. I'm not keen on it, but I suppose it's possible.


Do you think that PJ will leave Bilbo as just an onlooker in the battle? I'm not sure if he will or not. It seems like PJ might think he wouldn't want to leave our main protagonist out of the major battle. I certainly don't think he'll be knocked out in the book. I always figured PJ would include Bilbo in the battle. And I'd be okay with that. But you also bring up a really good point: what business would Bilbo have putting himself in the middle of the battle like that?

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


dormouse
Half-elven


Jul 30 2014, 7:57pm

Post #14 of 20 (224 views)
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I suppose the thing is.... [In reply to] Can't Post

... that my mental image of what's going to happen is still dependent on the book.

Looking at the trailer, they seem to have the scene in which Thorin and the dwarves are looking down from somewhere on the Mountain while Bard is calling up to them. At that point, if they're following the book at least in outline, Bilbo should be with the dwarves, having already snuck down with the Arkenstone, and immediately after Thorin will send him packing. After that, he'll be with Bard, Gandalf and the Elvenking. So if - and of course it's a huge if - that's how the thing goes, I'd expect Bilbo to be in the battle in the film version but in some other part of the battlefield. With the elves, with Bard, with Gandalf... I don't know. Maybe just looking on, maybe joining in with them in some way. We haven't seen anything yet that suggests that he joins in the fighting but that's not to say he won't.

'Cos you see, that scene of Thorin and the dwarves emerging from the Mountain just when things look darkest, Thorin looking magmificent in full armour and charging into the middle of things - and of course, overdoing it and going too far into the ranks of the enemy - seems to me to be so dramatic that I can't imagine them wanting to lose it. And I just can't see them putting Bilbo into the middle of that. So my betting is that he'll be watching it happen from a distance - too far away to help.

And of course, I could be entirely wrong!


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Jul 30 2014, 8:58pm

Post #15 of 20 (197 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

My take on it is the one scene where they are preparing for battle (with bilbo not in armor but in the mithril shirt and having already returned from giving up the Arkenstone) is right before Bard/Thranduil show up at the gate. Perhaps Thorin gets prepared thinking they are going to assault Erebor. The scene after where Bard is calling down from below with Thorin from above follows and is the scene right before Thorin banishes Bilbo to the other side. After Thorin says "I want war" or whatever the next shot should be Bard holding up the Arkenstone, if that makes sense. So we are seeing everything up to the point Bilbo gets tossed (figuratively speaking :) )

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


Rickster
Rohan

Jul 30 2014, 11:12pm

Post #16 of 20 (177 views)
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it seems to me that we will be amazed [In reply to] Can't Post

There will be things that we did not see coming


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Jul 31 2014, 12:50am

Post #17 of 20 (165 views)
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Saving Bilbo would be cliched [In reply to] Can't Post

much more heart rending would be Bilbo seeing Fili & Kili already dead or mortally wounded and incapacitated then witnessing the fall of Thorin at a distance but not being able to do anything about it.
Bilbo having a more active role in the battle is inevitable and what I consider probably an improvement to the story with respect to being on film.


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Jul 31 2014, 4:05am

Post #18 of 20 (131 views)
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LOL... and I agree with you.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Jul 31 2014, 7:11am

Post #19 of 20 (117 views)
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That would work very nicely... [In reply to] Can't Post

...just because presumably Bilbo is not going to be unconscious, it doesn't mean he actually has to be at the heart of the battle. We need to see the battle through his eyes, obviously, and your suggestion of seeing major events from a distance with Bilbo unable to help would add even greater pathos.


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


Arannir
Valinor


Jul 31 2014, 7:39am

Post #20 of 20 (122 views)
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Agreed. [In reply to] Can't Post

https://heirsofdurin.files.wordpress.com/...0p-mov_000062187.jpg

This scene in the teaser seems like he might be somewhere in the battle, but kind of hiding, getting lost and overseen.

Maybe he catches sight of Thorin, Kili and Fili battleing Azog and Bolg on Ravenhill and follows them to witness their deaths.

In general I could see the final battle between the three dwarves and the two Orcs (at least the death blows) happening there - witnessable by the other combatants who will probably mainly fight on the plains.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.


 
 

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