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Bofur01
Lorien
Jul 29 2014, 12:09pm
Post #1 of 10
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The Seven Dwarf Kingdoms
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Are these the Kingdoms whose kings were given rings by Sauron? And what are they?
Presumably Khazad-Dum was one of them, but what are the others? From the tapestry we can guess Erebor, the Iron Hills, and Ered Mithrim. Also, the Blue Mountains are a possibility... but that still leaves 2...
And if, as Thorin said, envoys "from all seven kingdoms" met to discuss the Quest, then that rules out Khazad-DUm, in film-verse, which had been long ago destroyed...
Thoughts?
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Hamfast of Gamwich
Rivendell
Jul 29 2014, 12:20pm
Post #2 of 10
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I think there are two separate blue mountains kingdoms. I'm sure others here know more than me though!
"Durin's Heir you may be, but even with one eye you should see clearer. If this is victory, then our hands are too small to hold it. We will not enter Khazad-dum. You will not enter Khazad-dum. Beyond the shadow of the gate it waits for you still: Durin’s Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin’s Folk walk again in Moria.”
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Bofur01
Lorien
Jul 29 2014, 12:24pm
Post #3 of 10
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I think they were destroyed when Beleriand was sunk...
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They were Nogrod and Belegost, and (on another board) we came to the conclusion that they were destroyed... but I'd like to be proved wrong, as I like the idea that they survived :)
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Arannir
Valinor
Jul 29 2014, 12:26pm
Post #4 of 10
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Khazad-dûm (Exiled)
Nogrod (Blue Mountains - destroyed)
Belegost (Blue Mountains - partially destroyed)
Grey Mountains (Exiled)
Erebor
Iron Hills
Orocarni (Red Mountains)
After the War of the Ring:
The Glittering Caves of Aglarond
I guess it would make sense to say that when Thorin speaks about the Seven Kingdoms in the movies he means the actual exisiting Kingdoms as well as different groups and families of Dwarves that count themselves to one of them or originating from them, including the lost kingdoms.
Source: Tolkien Gateway
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Jul 29 2014, 12:29pm)
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Jul 29 2014, 12:59pm
Post #5 of 10
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Thank you for the clarification! //
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'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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Azaghâl
Lorien
Jul 29 2014, 2:03pm
Post #7 of 10
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Could also refer to the 7 clans
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Longbeards: Line of Durin, home in Kazad-dûm, misty mountains and after the Balrog destroyed it they moved to The Lonely mountain, the grey mountains and the Iron hills. After Smaug sacked Erebor they also lived in the blue mountains. Poor longbeards had a rough history.
Firebeards: home in Nogrod, blue mountains
Broadbeams: Home in Belegost, blue mountains
Ironfists, Stiffbeards, Blacklocks and Stonefoots: Home in Orocarni (red mountains), The Ironfists and Stiffbeards lived in the T-shaped northern half while the Blacklocks and Stonefoots lived in the backwards-C-shaped southern half.
In the hobbit movies I find it hard to figure out which kingdoms they are refering to, as Ironhills are clearly one of them.
Could be an interesting question for Phillipa Boyens.
*Baruk khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!*
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Grimnir
The Shire
Jul 29 2014, 4:15pm
Post #8 of 10
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I think it refers to the "seven families".//
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Aitieuriskon
Lorien
Jul 29 2014, 6:43pm
Post #9 of 10
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Aren't Khazad Dum and the new realms founded in exile (Erebor, Grey Mts, Iron Hills) mutually exclusive? Of these, the only ones that existed as contemporaneous kingdoms prior to the Quest were the Iron Hills and Erebor before it fell.
Seven seems to pop up in a number of different lists concerning the dwarves:
-Books: 7 fathers of the dwarven race (created by Aule before time) whose tribes do not necessarily align with the following:
-Books and films: 7 dwarven ring-recipients
-Films: 7 dwarven families who almost certainly do not correspond to those of book-canon (especially if they were present for a meeting in the Ered Luin).
"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951
(This post was edited by Aitieuriskon on Jul 29 2014, 6:45pm)
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Aitieuriskon
Lorien
Jul 29 2014, 6:48pm
Post #10 of 10
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This canonical list can hardly correspond to the 7 families listed in the films, especially since some were probably destroyed utterly at the end of the first age, and others enslaved by Sauron when he took their patriarchs' rings (though we don't know for certain that the seven rings were given to the seven clan-chiefs).
EDIT: My guess is that 7 was a particularly important number to the dwarves from a cultural standpoint, so I'm guessing that even if certain clans were destroyed or enslaved, the survivors would contrive a way to either bring a new clan into being to fill the complement OR perhaps intermarried enough that members of one clan with blood-ties to another could re-found the other when it was lost.
"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951
(This post was edited by Aitieuriskon on Jul 29 2014, 6:52pm)
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