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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
How can Bard be this great war leader after being a bargeman?
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Moahunter
Rohan


Jul 28 2014, 5:04am

Post #26 of 48 (696 views)
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I'm surprised that no-one has used the hackneyed phrase..... [In reply to] Can't Post

its in his DNA.


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Jul 28 2014, 9:08am

Post #27 of 48 (639 views)
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Cirishala, the difference between smith and soldier was often quite pronounced (think mechanic vs driver) some crossover but differentvprofessions [In reply to] Can't Post

Even parts of the swords were in many instances made by different people, for example a smith may do the blade and a different person as cutler would mount the fittings including guard, pommel and grip.

The groove in the middle of some types of blade is not a furrow but a fuller, has nothing to do with draining blade and has everything to do with redistribution of the blades mass by means of creating an efficient cross section.


boldog
Rohan


Jul 28 2014, 9:26am

Post #28 of 48 (635 views)
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Well the same can be said about the Hobbits [In reply to] Can't Post

Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin, i dont think would have ever used a sword in their lives before their adventures. Yet somehow, when they are in their first situation where they need to use it, they seem to be very skilled.

I think in the movies, it is probably something overlooked by Jackson. We cant get explanations for everything. We can only assume, how they got their training and skill.

I believe that Azog and Bolg are possibly the only two orcs who may be an exception to the typical evil nature of an orc. Azog had brought up his son, well enough that he actually acknowledges him as his own son. That is a first for any orc. And Bolg sets out to march upon Erebor in vengeance of his fathers death. How many orcs will Try and avenge another dead orc? Most will just forget about the dead one. This gives me hope that Orcs, have some traits of good in them, even if it is small aspects.


ninquelote
The Shire


Jul 28 2014, 10:11am

Post #29 of 48 (619 views)
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Just like Aragorn [In reply to] Can't Post

All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost.


greenbalrog
Bree

Jul 28 2014, 10:15am

Post #30 of 48 (610 views)
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This. And, the hero stuff [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it's one of those things we just need to accept.

Heroes do their hero business, and since there's a lot of fighting involved in the Hobbit and LotR, I can accept that Merry, Pippin, Sam, Bard, all the dwarfs, can fight and manage to kill many orcs/goblins and still manage to survive.

The key for me is that they're heroes, and as such they have abilities that surpass what they probably should be allowed to do in real life. But this isn't real life, this is fantasy remember?

As others have said, Bard is a hero in the Hobbit, so his skills get like magically augmented by the fact that he's no longer an ordinary mortal and now he can use the sword.

That said, I would still prefer that he could have stick to the bow like Legolas, for example.


(This post was edited by greenbalrog on Jul 28 2014, 10:16am)


dormouse
Half-elven


Jul 28 2014, 10:46am

Post #31 of 48 (607 views)
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Why should he not be? [In reply to] Can't Post

He's a strong character, physically and mentally. He lives in what seems to be a repressive society and maintains a streak of independence - think of those make-shift weapons and his willingness to shelter and help the dwarves. Then there's his heritage as the heir of Girion: he's clearly aware of it himself and it sets him apart.

Those are the underlying factors. What happens with Smaug gives him the status of a leader among the survivors - particularly when coupled with the lack of effective opposition from the Master, who is shown up to be all out for himself. that's what makes Bard a natural leader; inheritance, personal qualities and circumstances combined.

As for a war leader, he has the right and the presence to negotiate with Thorin, but when it comes to directing the actual fighting he won't be acting alone. He'll have Thranduil, Dain and Gandalf - I can't see a problem there.


Avandel
Half-elven

Jul 28 2014, 12:12pm

Post #32 of 48 (579 views)
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There's been some fabulous and interesting answers... [In reply to] Can't Post

Like, for instance (duh on my partUnsure) why exactly WOULD Bard have a cache of hidden weapons - and this just popped into my head - when Bard names the weapon that I can't recall at the momentUnsure, but he does say "WE call it."

Which means this is something that's a common type of improvised weapon in the town, e.g. other folks are making and stashing these kinds of weapons - as Glorfindela pointed out, Laketown is a rough place to live.

Tho to my mind, there is the issue of practice with weapons - in that the best with weapons as far as I know (martial arts, target shooters, etc.) practice continually. The other issue would be - and this is something I know little about - as far as I would guess tho, it takes a special talent to be a strategist (which is on my mind after watching a documentary show where Caesar manages to starve out and get a surrender from the Gauls in 5 days, thanks to his strategy of building a double-ringed stockade - a nasty and effective fortress). E.g., it takes a certain kind of mind to plan that kind of thing.

However, 1) nothing has been seen in a real context yet, and 2) I could see Bard, as a hunter, being very effective in guerrilla-type fighting e.g. in Dale. Less so possibly trying to take on even a small group of dwarves in their own turf who evidently have access to weapons and incendiaries, even tho Erebor is badly damaged (just idly speculating).
Also it will be interesting to see if Bard feels any unease that he is attacking former guests in his house, or do things get so bad that is put aside, because of the events at Laketown, and he's just too angry.

Thranduil, on the other hand, I view as incredibly dangerous, having gone through a great battle and survived, being who he is, and holding his kingdom the way he has. Plus backed by his own people.

Again, tho - there have been some great and interesting responses.HeartSmile


Avandel
Half-elven

Jul 28 2014, 12:21pm

Post #33 of 48 (568 views)
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but I love these details [In reply to] Can't Post

Just like I loved reading that Thanduil's sword was cut from a single piece of metal and was the most expensive and difficult of the Hobbit swords to make, even more so than Orcrist.Heart

And it was interesting reading the master swordsmith (in the WETA book) talking about the lightness of blades, e.g. blades need to be just heavy enough. It hadn't occurred to me after all these movies over the years - including Conan the Barbarian - that those amazing huge blades might actually be a liability, and that people who use weapons think beyond a big showy sword - but more of what do you need to get the job done.

And glad for your post, because I had read the term "blood groove" and yes, that's what I thought the grooves were for.
It SOUNDS cool, whether accurate or not.Cool


Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea


Jul 28 2014, 12:30pm

Post #34 of 48 (571 views)
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I thought that too but... [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess when you kill a dragon you see yourself able to do anything, and that maybe would be enough confidence to face the orcs pretending you know how to weild a sword, and maybe that pretending tourns out in that you know how or somethingTongue

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true!


Avandel
Half-elven

Jul 28 2014, 12:35pm

Post #35 of 48 (562 views)
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Not at all [In reply to] Can't Post

Especially where Ridley Scott's films are concerned. Not only do I feel KOH was woefully underrated, but so was his Robin Hood, which I felt was an elegant, mature, treatment - I'm very disappointed that it seems there would be no follow-up to that. At least under Scott's direction.Frown

And there are scenes in KOH that to me should be held up as examples in teaching film, that's how good I think the visuals are.Heart

PS. and Brendan Gleeson's Reynald! And some great lines too. Even the small scenes with the ice in the box (I know I'm OT here, but the attack on Jerusalem is so epic, and reminds me of the great battles like Helm's Deep - and AzanulbizarHeart, if that had been longer.)


Avandel
Half-elven

Jul 28 2014, 12:41pm

Post #36 of 48 (559 views)
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And then again [In reply to] Can't Post

In the WETA book, Stephen Hunter talks about his character as Master being corrupt and dissipated and probably holds power by bribes and his own thugs - but - he does seem to bring some sort of order, and does, quote "keep the town clear of orcs, elves, and the like".

So will these questionable soldiers of the Master join Bard, or just run away? Interesting details!


Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Jul 28 2014, 1:39pm

Post #37 of 48 (545 views)
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Well, if Antonio Banderas can pick up a language just sitting around a Viking campfire [In reply to] Can't Post

in the 13th Warrior, why couldn't the Hobbits have picked up some self-defence at least? Frodo and Co did get tuteluge from Boromir and Aragorn during the initial stage of the journey, at least movie-wise.

I reckon Bilbo'd have picked up a few pointers from the Dwarves sitting around the campfire as well.

But to go from collecting barrels to commanding an army that takes a bit more doing.


Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment. But call me Lurker.


Heart Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), Two, Three, Four (new! posted 16 Jul)


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk


Darkstone
Immortal


Jul 28 2014, 1:41pm

Post #38 of 48 (549 views)
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General Han Solo [In reply to] Can't Post

As has been noted, there's lots of thuggish and disreputable people inside Lake-town. So one can only imagine the even worse type of people Bard has to deal with while he's on the outside. The life of a smuggler is dangerous and violent. Basically there's smart smugglers, and there's dead smugglers. One survives by both brains and brawn. The smuggling life has doubtless given Bard an extensive skill set. So it's the exact same reasons no one questioned when Han Solo was commissioned a general in the Rebellion.

(And just a tip, don't ever call the Millennium Falcon a barge.)

******************************************
"We’ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true."
-Robert Wilensky


MasterOrc
Rivendell


Jul 28 2014, 2:00pm

Post #39 of 48 (547 views)
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Thank you! It appears the Elves are bowing to him for such a great feat... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
He kills Smaug.



HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell


Jul 28 2014, 5:12pm

Post #40 of 48 (513 views)
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Bard is like a lesser Aragorn.... [In reply to] Can't Post

After all, he is a descendant of Girion, the last lord of Dale. Given that Girion was Bard's grandfather, it wouldn't seem too odd that he was trained as a youth in the art of war. Obviously, book Bard and film Bard are different, but the film also hints that Bard is descended from Girion. Just because he is a fisherman doesn't mean he can't do other things. Remember, Strider was a Ranger before he was a King.


Granted, Aragorn's lineage is much greater than Bard's there are the similarities. At its peak, Dale would have trailed only Gondor (and maybe Rohan) as the strongest kingdoms of Men. Laketown had fallen on hard times, but the memory of better times would have still been around. Anyway, if Aragorn could become a great king (granted he had training and tutelage in Rivendell), why couldn't Bard become a somewhat lesser king?


VeArkenstone
Lorien

Jul 28 2014, 11:19pm

Post #41 of 48 (484 views)
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Bard probably can use a sword, but I think he prefers the bow. [In reply to] Can't Post

This is my understanding (and I could be mistaken in some of this!): Bard does kill Smaug, and since he does kill Smaug, and Bard is a direct descendent of the last Lord of Dale, and the present Lord of Laketown is an unpopular nincompoop, doesn't Bard become Lord of the Laketown survivers by popular demand ? And he becomes Lord of Dale as Dale is being rebuilt because he is the legal heir to that throne. And, if I am not mistaken, Brand becomes Lord of Dale after Bard dies, and in 3019 of the Third Age, there is a great battle over Erebor. Orcs kill Lord Brand, and King Dain dies while protecting Brand's dead body from being taken by orcs. It was said that Dain was about 250 years old and the witnesses could not believe the way he swinging that ax around and how many orcs he brought down. I think there was a long history between the Dwarf Kings of Erebor and the Lords of Dale, Bard's ancestors.

P.S. The trailer is really neat, and the movie poster is amazing!

Please, call me Ve.


Cirashala
Valinor


Jul 29 2014, 12:02am

Post #42 of 48 (487 views)
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very, very close :) [In reply to] Can't Post

Bain is Bard's son, and Brand is Bain's son, so Brand is Bard's grandson Smile

Other than that, you've got it spot on! Cool



VeArkenstone
Lorien

Jul 29 2014, 8:54pm

Post #43 of 48 (466 views)
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So it goes Bard - Bain - Brand, and it is Bain who is in DOS. Thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post

I watched AUJ again, and I finally saw that it was a Dwarf female in that scene we were talking about. It has to be Dis. And the mountains Thorin points to have definately look blueish, so possibly the Blue Mountains? It is very exciting!

Please, call me Ve.


Cirashala
Valinor


Jul 29 2014, 9:10pm

Post #44 of 48 (461 views)
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I'm not entirely certain [In reply to] Can't Post

that they were called the Blue Mountains by their hue, but it may be a good guess Smile Though the name could have also been derived from the hues of the rock inside, much like how Erebor's rock walls were green on the inside.

Most mountains will look blue-ish, especially from a distance. I've lived around mountains for most of my life, and most all of them will look blue-ish if you're far enough away (the ones that looked that way the most to me are the Rocky Mountains when traveling through Wyoming heading north on their eastern side- possibly because all you see up until that point in the distance is nothing but brown prairie grass). It was during that part of the drive where I usually slept (we lived in Denver, Colorado, so when we headed north then west to Washington to visit my grandmother, we usually would leave at 4 am, and to be honest that particular stretch of road isn't exactly great scenery anyway). So the blue hue may also have been due to the early morning just before the sun would rise when the day starts to lighten.

She will always be Dis in my mind regardless Smile That's the nice thing about having "head canon"- you can give names of canon characters to existing extras who are unnamed in the movie but appear and are certainly plausible to be them Smile



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 29 2014, 10:52pm

Post #45 of 48 (458 views)
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Bard never rules Lake-town. [In reply to] Can't Post

The Master of Lake-town (in the book) remains in power until he and his henchmen abscond with a portion of the gold from Smaug's treasure. The Master is abandoned by his men in the marshes and he starves to death alone. The folk of Esgaroth elect a new Master, while Bard becomes Lord of the rebuilt Dale.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Avandel
Half-elven

Jul 30 2014, 1:37am

Post #46 of 48 (458 views)
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That's coz Antonio B. is a vampire [In reply to] Can't Post



Yah know, if they did something about the fangs and the red eyes, he might have made an interesting elf....Wink


Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Jul 31 2014, 11:48am

Post #47 of 48 (441 views)
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LOL... true though [In reply to] Can't Post

hmmm... Amroth perhaps?


Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment. But call me Lurker.


Heart Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)


Laugh Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), Two, Three, Four (new! posted 16 Jul)


"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk


VeArkenstone
Lorien

Jul 31 2014, 10:25pm

Post #48 of 48 (435 views)
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Thanks! This may be a good time for me to reread The Hobbit. [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Please, call me Ve.

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