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Question about Shadowfax

Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jul 26 2014, 3:37pm

Post #1 of 20 (832 views)
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Question about Shadowfax Can't Post

Did Shadowfax sail West with Gandalf? I think there was a post on this a while back, and there seemed to be (if I remember correctly) some question.

My old Ballantine, c. 1955, c. 1983 renewed by CRT, MHRT, JFRT and PMART, pb copy states in The Grey Havens,

Quote
Then Cirdan led them to the Havens, and there was a white ship lying, and upon the quay stood a figure robed all in white awaiting them.

Now from Letters #268, dated 19 Jan. 1965 Tolkien says,

Quote
I think Shadowfax certainly went with Gandalf (across the sea), though this is not stated. (My emphasis)

Yesterday I went to my local bookstore and checked two of the new(er) versions of LotR and both state (paraphrase), “…and upon the quay beside a great grey horse stood a figure robed all in white…”. This seems to reasonably eliminate any question of Shadowfax’s sailing.

My question is, were these newer (revised) editions revised by JRRT himself, or did his children take it upon themselves to add to this passage - “a great grey horse” - possibly from some unknown (to me) writings?

Cuio i Pheriain anann! Aglar'ni Pheriannath!


emre43
Rohan

Jul 26 2014, 4:44pm

Post #2 of 20 (738 views)
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In the Epilogue published posthumously [In reply to] Can't Post

Sam clearly states to his children that Shadowfax sailed west.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jul 26 2014, 5:18pm

Post #3 of 20 (709 views)
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Thank you emre43 [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess it's the "posthumous" part that bothers me.

Is this an actual addition by Tolkien or one of his children? Anyone?

BTW, I'm not for a minute doubting that Shadowfax sailed as Tolkien himself stated in his Letter above that he thought so too. I'm only concerned with the "who" addition of his original published words.

Cuio i Pheriain anann! Aglar'ni Pheriannath!


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jul 26 2014, 5:29pm

Post #4 of 20 (706 views)
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Or to clarify somewhat.. [In reply to] Can't Post

Did Tolkien himself decide to clarify (after his Letter of Jan. 1965) beyond any doubt that Shadowfax DID sail West ?

Cuio i Pheriain anann! Aglar'ni Pheriannath!


emre43
Rohan

Jul 26 2014, 6:13pm

Post #5 of 20 (700 views)
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Tolkien really wanted to include his epilogue in the initial release of LOTR in 1954 [In reply to] Can't Post

His publisher disagreed and Tolkien reluctantly submitted to them. He then later stated his regret in his letters about this decision and wished the epilogue could have been published with the main story.


IdrilLalaith
Rivendell


Jul 26 2014, 7:02pm

Post #6 of 20 (692 views)
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In other words [In reply to] Can't Post

The epilogue was written by Tolkien and his intent was to publish it with LotR. His son Christopher published it after his father's death. Christopher didn't write it or (to my knowledge) edit it.

So, yes, Tolkien did indeed intend to communicate that Shadowfax sailed into the west with Gandalf.

TolkienBlog.com


geordie
Tol Eressea

Jul 26 2014, 8:22pm

Post #7 of 20 (693 views)
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Tolkien made the change himself [In reply to] Can't Post

- in the 2nd ed. of the Allen & Unwin edition, in 1966. It's been that way ever since; in the British copies at least.

.


(This post was edited by geordie on Jul 26 2014, 8:24pm)


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jul 26 2014, 9:19pm

Post #8 of 20 (664 views)
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Ok, thank you all [In reply to] Can't Post

I can see now that I need to update from my beat-up, written-in OLD paper-back edition. And will do so quickly as I'm most anxious to read this epilogue (and whatever other changes there might be).

Thanks again! SmileSmile

ps I'm glad that Shadowfax got to sail into the West and resides with the Greats of the Middle-earth animal world. Gwaihir must be there also. Smile

Cuio i Pheriain anann! Aglar'ni Pheriannath!


DaughterofLaketown
Gondor


Jul 26 2014, 10:33pm

Post #9 of 20 (663 views)
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Tolkien did write the epilogue [In reply to] Can't Post

But chose not to include it.


Magpie
Immortal


Jul 26 2014, 10:42pm

Post #10 of 20 (659 views)
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You can read the various edits in the History of Middle-earth, "Sauron Defeated: The End of the Third Age" [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien changed his mind a lot which is evident in the numerous edits. So trying to 'prove' things by looking through his edits is risky business. One needs to be specific that info is from unpublished edits.

I enjoyed reading the epilogue very much. You might want to get that volume or one of the sets of the entire collection.


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TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


Moahunter
Rohan


Jul 27 2014, 5:32am

Post #11 of 20 (649 views)
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The Epilogue? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm confused.
I've just checked two of my copies. Neither has an Epilogue but they both have Chapter IX The Grey Havens containing the passage referred to re. Shadowfax.


IdrilLalaith
Rivendell


Jul 27 2014, 6:09am

Post #12 of 20 (639 views)
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Not published in LotR [In reply to] Can't Post

To be clear, the epilogue has, to date, not been published in Lord of the Rings. You can read it in The End of the Third Age (http://www.amazon.com/Third-History-Lord-Rings-Part/dp/0618083561) and I believe Sauron Defeated (http://www.amazon.com/Sauron-Defeated-History-Tolkien-Middle-Earth/dp/0395606497/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1406441349&sr=1-1&keywords=sauron+defeated).

TolkienBlog.com

(This post was edited by IdrilLalaith on Jul 27 2014, 6:09am)


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jul 27 2014, 12:18pm

Post #13 of 20 (640 views)
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Oh My . . When is an epilogue not an epilogue? [In reply to] Can't Post

I too was confused assuming that an epilogue was an epilogue - to LotR. But NO!

As IdrilLalaith has made clear (finally and hopefully once and for all) it can be found in Sauron Defeated etc.

Sometimes it can take MANY posts to get at the facts on this here site, eh?

Thanks again everybody! Smile
BG

Cuio i Pheriain anann! Aglar'ni Pheriannath!


Magpie
Immortal


Jul 27 2014, 2:33pm

Post #14 of 20 (625 views)
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well... I thought I made that clear, as well... [In reply to] Can't Post

but perhaps those reading in flat mode don't read the subject lines?




LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide

(This post was edited by Magpie on Jul 27 2014, 2:37pm)


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jul 27 2014, 2:34pm

Post #15 of 20 (620 views)
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Marching back in time [In reply to] Can't Post

Back in the misty past of March 2014 I wrote -- in response to you and in a thread titled 'Shadowfax'...

[*Tolkien added a mention of a great 'grey' horse at the Havens for the Second Edition]. And [same thread]...

'Yes, considering the letter [in one of my posts in this thread] Tolkien actually decided to add a reference to Shadowfax here -- he had mentioned the great horse in the Epilogue, but JRRT got talked out of including any sort of epilogue of course.'

From a thread in The Lord of the Rings section here.

So you didn't trust me... I see... no no, I understand Smile


(This post was edited by Elthir on Jul 27 2014, 2:35pm)


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jul 27 2014, 3:08pm

Post #16 of 20 (615 views)
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Sorry Magpie [In reply to] Can't Post

You did make it clear where it could be found - yes. But reading the entire post it was not made clear where it could NOT be found, ie LotR. I had thought the epilogue would be an epilogue and your references to some type of extended epilogue.

Yes I read the sub lines.

II have given thanks and will now continue my apology tour. SmileSmile

Cuio i Pheriain anann! Aglar'ni Pheriannath!


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jul 27 2014, 3:33pm

Post #17 of 20 (616 views)
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Apologies Elthir [In reply to] Can't Post

O certainly I don't mistrust you. I can only blame my forgetfulness on the loss of 3.5 million brain cells per day. And the "misty past" might be mistier for me than the average bear. And I am NOT a good searcher of past posts.

Hmm - I wonder if Tolkien had a problem with a "grey great horse" as he did in his younger days with a "green great dragon"? Smile

Cheers,
and for gosh sakes - thanks again everyone.

ps And for those not in the know - SHADOWFAX SAILED WEST WITH GANDALF - THAT'S A FER SURE!
And there is NO epilogue in LotR - THAT'S A FER SURE! (I think)TongueTongue

Cuio i Pheriain anann! Aglar'ni Pheriannath!


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jul 27 2014, 3:43pm

Post #18 of 20 (609 views)
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No problem [In reply to] Can't Post

I mean I wouldn't trust me... but that's just me Wink


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jul 27 2014, 4:36pm

Post #19 of 20 (610 views)
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You don't mean [In reply to] Can't Post

we're still friends?

Good! Ya can't have too many friends. After all who's going to see you off when it's your turn to sail West of the Moon and East of the Sun - or is it East of the Moon and West of the Sun?

I just don't know! I have a great great uncle who fought for the East in the Civil War! WinkWink


emre43
Rohan

Jul 28 2014, 9:21am

Post #20 of 20 (601 views)
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He didn't choose as such [In reply to] Can't Post

The publisher's did not want him to publish it; whereas he very much did want to.

 
 

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