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NamoMandos
The Shire
Jul 23 2014, 1:23am
Post #1 of 19
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Bilbo's problematic motivation
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Hello everyone - although this is my first official post on these forums, I have been a frequenter of TORN for over 13 years, ever since those heady days of the original trilogy. Having read LOTR and The Hobbit before any of the films were released, it has been a great pleasure following anything and everything related to these projects (for almost a decade and a half now), and TORN has always been my go-to for news, insight, humour, fun, and just plain coolness. You all know what I mean ;) Anyhow, after lurking on these boards for so long, and so thoroughly enjoying your perspectives, insights, and observations, I've decided to break my silence. After all, with only one film left to go, it's now or never, right?
Let me be candid from the outset - although delighted by the original LOTR trilogy, I have been sorely disappointed with The Hobbit films thus far. This being said, I have a great deal of respect for all who love these films, and I have greatly appreciated your thoughts as expressed on these boards; hearing what you have to say has helped to give me a more well-rounded perspective on these films, and for this I'm grateful. You guys rock! I also understand that book and film are completely different media and I do not expect adaptations to be 'faithful' in terms of unfolding the story in the same way. This is largely not possible, nor even desirable.
However, quite apart from the source material, I want to express what I perceive to be one of the greatest weaknesses of these films in their own right. It has to do with Bilbo's motivation as a character. Every good story requires a protagonist with a strong, clear, and understandable motivation for doing what they do. Frodo, although reluctant to leave his home, is committed to destroying the ring. Harry, although loathe to endanger those he loves, is committed to defeating Voldemort. Bruce Wayne, although conflicted by inner demons, is determined to give Gotham back to the people and rid it of evil. And so on.
But Bilbo - what is his motivation? Why does he go on the quest of Erebor in the first place? In the book, the answer is clear enough - he doesn't want to go! Waking up the morning after the Unexpected Party, Bilbo is relieved to find that the dwarves have apparently left without him, and although struck by a pang of regret, is ready to settle happily back into his everyday life. It is only Gandalf's arrival and 'nudge out of the door' that puts him with the dwarves at all! In other words, he is coerced (albeit without putting up much of a fight). In his early adventures (trolls, goblins, eagles, etc.) he is swept along in the action, but shows very little agency or heroism. It is only as the story progresses that Bilbo begins to take a lead role, out of necessity - after all, he is the only member of the company who is physically able to do anything about the spiders and later the wood-elves. Thus, it is only during and after his experiences in Mirkwood that Bilbo takes a more active role in the quest, having accepted his position as a de-facto 'leader' of sorts. Now, having come so far, he finds himself bound to the dwarves by loyalty, affection, and obligation (to be their burglar at Erebor). Thus, although Bilbo grows into his role gradually and his motivation evolves throughout the story, it nonetheless remains clear and understandable throughout.
Here's where I think PJ and his team made a serious misstep. In AUJ, Bilbo's primary motivation is extremely UNclear throughout the film. This is most noticeable when answering the question of "does Bilbo even want to be on this journey in the first place?" In the book, the answer is "No - but he grows into it and his Tookish side gradually comes to the fore." In the film, however, this is extremely unclear. When the dwarves arrive at his place, he is repulsed - when the danger of the quest is discussed, he faints - when Gandalf asks for a commitment, point-blank, he says "no" - and then the next morning he runs out the door after them!
What?? Now, of course, I understand that there is a 'change of heart moment' - Bilbo wakes up, sees his house put back to normal, and we infer through the camerawork, shot arrangements, facial expressions, etc. that Bilbo is feeling regretful and wondering what his life may have been like if he indeed went on the journey... and so he has a change of heart and rushes out the door to join the company.
Fine - this (significant) change could actually work - IF the rest of the film was consistent with this motivation (although it does make nonsense of Gandalf's line in PJ's FOTR about having to give Bilbo "a little nudge out of the door"... awkward!). But it isn't. Throughout the film, Bilbo shows no real zest for the quest (can I please copyright that?) - odd, since he was so juiced up when he sprinted out of his door! And then, in the Misty Mountains, he actually tries to leave the whole venture! Yes, this is in response to Thorin's angry outburst, but it is still problematic because there is no actual basis provided for Thorin's anger - there has been no build-up or rationale provided for this crucial moment, and therefore, IMO, it rings hollow. Then, in the end, Bilbo makes a beautiful (really, it is) speech about how he wants to help the dwarves get their home back - but again, we are never shown a reason for this change of heart. Huh? (On a side note, Canadian film critic Eli Glasner made what I believe is an excellent observation: the reason that Riddles in the Dark is the best scene in AUJ is because it is really the only time that Bilbo's motivation is simple and crystal clear - he wants to get out of Gollum's cave alive, period. If his motivation would have been this clear throughout the entire film, I think it could have been fantastic.)
Anyhow, I need to clip this already over-long post. I do not mean to rant, and again, I have total respect for those who love these films. Perhaps some of you have some insight that can help me change my mind about this! But for now, I believe this issue of murky motivation is representative of some of the very problematic choices that have been made in these adaptations, which IMO have hurt, rather than helped, the story. Sorry again that this post got so terribly long! I'm eager to hear the perspectives that you all have to offer.
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KeenObserver
Lorien
Jul 23 2014, 3:11am
Post #2 of 19
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Salutations! 
For me, Biblo's motivation(s) is/are quite simple.
The morning after the unexpected party, we watch Bilbo come to the realization that this is his chance for adventure. He feels like he may miss out on something momentous and hastily decides that he would like to partake in this journey. Gandalf had spoken to his Tookish side the night before and awoke a dormant yearning for world travel. I consider the nudge-out-of-the-door comment to be figurative rather than literal.
During the journey, Bilbo quickly discovers just how uncomfortable and dangerous adventures can be (sooner than he would have liked). He has a hard time ditching his "Baggins" mentality and he struggles to assimilate into the company. Of course, most of that is alluded to or mentioned. Skeptical Thorin obviously picks up on this and it likely gives him a feeling of unease. To Mr. Oakenshield, the hobbit's presence has been downright unharmonious. Add to that the business with the trolls and the cliffhanging incident where Bilbo is the only one to nearly fall to his death, and you have a company leader whose very low tolerance for the inexperienced has bottomed out.
Bilbo's speech about home and intended reclamation is an interesting one. The hobbit is not going to head back now. He is relieved to be amongst the dwarves again. So, I think that the speech is both a frank yet makeshift response to Thorin's declarations and a bitter acceptance of the circumstances. There is spontaneity and unsureness in certain actions and utterances that I find humorous.
Anyway, that's just me.
But I definitely see where you're coming from.
The filmmakers could have done a better job of showing us motivations or
giving us a better idea of what might be going on within and between characters.
Though, perhaps they want to leave things open for interpretation.
I, personally, don't need nor want everything to be clear cut.
I hope that I was able to offer you satisfactory insight.
I'm sure somebody will come along and destroy my post.
”The thirst for adventure is the vent which Destiny offers; a war, a crusade, a gold mine, a new country, speak to the imagination and offer…” - Jose Bergamin
(This post was edited by KeenObserver on Jul 23 2014, 3:25am)
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 23 2014, 3:19am
Post #3 of 19
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Welcome from a former Lurker *grins*
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I am sure you will enjoy being "official" and be much welcomed - and IMO picked a great time to join since the board I assume will explode when the much-expected trailer is released.
OK, I'm fuzzy on the book having deliberately avoided re-reading (tho as a result TORn members have kindly pointed out book details, time to time). So from the perspective of the films:
I personally don't need a "pure" motivation, although I don't see lack of motivation as an issue with these films - in that the sometimes-criticized "slowness" of AUJ is where in IMO exquisite scenes at Bag End, we come to know at least some of the characters well enough, I think, to understand why they are behaving as they do. And you've mentioned that you appreciate the lovely moment when Bilbo basically realizes - and I think there was a foreshadowing of a stirring in his heart in that shot of Bilbo sitting deeply troubled on his bed hearing the dwarves sing - that part of him wants to go.
And I think re the handkerchief scene we see tho, he is still much the fussy hobbit who has no idea what he has gotten himself into.
Re: Yes, this is in response to Thorin's angry outburst, but it is still problematic because there is no actual basis provided for Thorin's anger - there has been no build-up or rationale provided for this crucial moment, and therefore, IMO, it rings hollow.
Here I agree, other than it's obvious that Thorin resented being saddled with what he viewed as a useless appendage from the start, and as did Dwalin, I think - not unexpected from the older "warrior dwarves" tho I think we see in the film other dwarves are more or less accepting. We don't see anything that might have improved Thorin's opinion , but other than getting caught by the trolls it's unfortunate that there wasn't a single moment where we see Bilbo getting on Thorin's and Dwalin's nerves in some way, e.g. fussing about the lousy food or something. (I'm not sure about the fall as that could have happened to anyone, and Thorin falls on the path - tho I do think Thorin is pretty wound up after spending time with ELVES and not in a great mood).
So as crazy as I am for these movies, I wish PJ had added a scene to underscore Bilbo being a "fish out of water". IMO this is similar to when the dwarves leave the Hidden Door so fast - not that they left, but IMO it was too abrupt.
But I disagree that there isn't a pivotal moment in AUJ when Bilbo has to choose - stay or go - in that preceding his speech to Thorin, there's that scene of Bilbo listening to Thorin's anger, and Bilbo thinking. At least for me that's the moment when - especially after having come through very desperate circumstances himself and Bilbo KNOWS the dwarves were captured - that for those seconds he sees the world through Thorin's eyes "he has thought of nothing but his soft bed and warm hearth since first he stepped outside his door." Also, this is after Bofur saying "we don't belong anywhere."
IMO it's a huge moment for this Hobbit - when would ANY hobbit think of what it might be like to be homeless? Or what it might be like to be an unhomed race? It's not hobbit culture, they are this cozy and gentle people - e.g. Bilbo telling Bofur earlier that none of the dwarves could understand. So I think the filmmakers set up the way a Hobbit views the world, and then in overhearing Thorin understanding that maybe this "living on the road" was nothing the dwarves ever wanted, after all - and that's Bilbo's motive for choosing.
*Gloomily* I love, love these movies, but if they have a flaw for me - especially DOS - it's the TOO tight editing in SOME places - whereas in a few other places there's too much e.g. the Tauriel healing scene, and what for me will probably be too much in BOFA having Legolas' LOTR motivations banged into my head, when I never wanted to know - I liked him being a mysterious elf.
But, I can't help you I don't think, because your very nice post mentions things that don't bother me unduly - and the things that DO bother me *shrug* these films have been magical for me. I've only had my mind changed a couple of times re others' input, and it's not often, because everyone sees things differently.
*Grins* I just wish the movies were twice as long. Hope other posters will have some insightful answers, which often happens - welcome again.
"Looking back on Bag End, it's...it's like we're just so innocent. We were all so happy...in that place, about to start this journey" - Richard Armitage, The Hobbit Appendices.
"If this is to end in fire, then we will all burn together" - Thorin, The Desolation of Smaug.
(This post was edited by Avandel on Jul 23 2014, 3:23am)
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Jul 23 2014, 3:22am
Post #4 of 19
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I think part of Bilbo's arc in AUJ is actually finding his reason for being on the quest in the first place, so maybe that's why his motivation doesn't always seem clear. He starts off very reluctant and annoyed when the dwarves arrive, but then his Tookish side, which Gandalf reminds him of, takes over before he runs out the door. He's excited and in the moment. But once the adventure gets going, he realizes that's it's actually quite dangerous and not just a simple walking holiday.
I think he simply carries on at first because he's still holding onto that thirst for adventure, even when things get hard. He goes to free the ponies when he could have straight out refused, but of course his actions have mixed results. He almost gets everyone eaten, but he's also the one that helps save them in the end. His test of whether or not his repressed thirst for adventure is enough of a reason to stay with the dwarves happens once they reach Rivendell. Not only does he have a chance to turn back, but Elrond even comes out and offers Bilbo a place to stay if he doesn't want to continue. Bilbo of course does continue but with obvious regret as they approach the edge of the wild.
I think Thorin's outburst isn't built up as well as it should have been, but there's definitely still some buildup. Thorin was unimpressed with Bilbo from the start, and nothing Bilbo did had impressed him so far. Even when Bilbo showed up to join them on the adventure, he immediately demanded that they turn around for a handkerchief. And Bilbo failed to free the ponies without getting caught, which was partially Kili and Fili's fault. But of course Thorin would blame Bilbo. Even when Bilbo stalls for time to give Gandalf a chance to save them, Thorin still can't admit that Bilbo did something useful. Bilbo slipping and "forcing" Thorin to save him was just enough to set Thorin off at an already stressful moment.
This also becomes too much for Bilbo, and he makes up his mind that he really doesn't belong and that "he didn't know what he was thinking" in the first place. I think this shows that his motivation is still supposed to be somewhat up in the air. He realizes that he's just tagging along at this point, and he has no real reason to stay. But what Bofur says about not belonging anywhere gives him something to think about, and he comes to the conclusion that that's what he's there for. Even if he doesn't have much to offer, he feels that helping these dwarves is the right thing to do.
(This post was edited by Mooseboy018 on Jul 23 2014, 3:26am)
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jul 23 2014, 7:58am
Post #5 of 19
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Hello - and welcome to the visible world!
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It's an interesting idea. This isn't something that has bothered me in watching the films and thinking about it, and the points you raised, I have to say it still doesn't bother me. First, as a general point, I don't think it's necessarily true that the protagonist in a story needs a strong, clear motivation. Why would it be when our own motivations in life are so often muddy and confused - when we're torn by conflicting motivations and often don't know which way to take?
Then, narrowing it down to Bilbo, I think they've captured his motivation - or lack of it - pretty well, book to film. You say that Bilbo in the book doesn't want to go with the dwarves. Well, that isn't quite what Tolkien said. When Bilbo wakes up to find himself alone with a mess to clear up (the film dwarves are much better at housekeeping!) he is relieved that they've gone as you say, and yet:
..and yet in a way he could not help feeling just a trifle disappointed. The feeling surprised him. "Don't be a fool, Bilbo Baggins!" he said to himself, "thinking of dragons and all that outlandish nonsense at your age!" So he put on an apron. . .
and he has just talked - and fed - himself into a nice, cosy state when Gandalf comes along, but do you see? Part of him does want to go. He talks himself out of it, but the duality is there from the start. I'd say they captured this in the film to perfection. They didn't use Gandalf; instead they had Bilbo take the decision to go himself and be all fired up with it - at first - but obviously without any appreciation of what it is he is taking on. As the reality dawns he misses home - as he does in the book - and wishes he'd never gone - as he does in the book - but he also discovers strengths in himself that he didn't know he had. He grows into the journey, film and book.
They have tweaked the details. They've made things happen in a different way but I think the essential Bilbo - torn between the need for comfort, safety and good food and that inner longing for adventure - has really come to life onscreen. He doesn't have a clear motivation in the book, why would he have one in the film?
Then something Tookish woke up inside him, and he wished to go and see the great mountains, and hear the pine trees and the waterfalls, and explore the caves, and wear a sword instead of a walking-stick. He looked out of the window. . . . Suddenly in the wood beyond the Water a flame leapt up - probably someone lighting a wood fire - and he thought of plundering dragons settling on his quiet Hill. . . He shuddered; and very quickly he was plain Mr Baggins of Bag-End, Under-Hill, again.
(I don't agree that they've made nonsense of Gandalf's 'a little nudge out of the door' either. They just moved it - but it's there, in the 'the world is not in your books and maps' conversation. That's the film nudge!)
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Arannir
Valinor
Jul 23 2014, 8:37am
Post #6 of 19
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I also do not buy AUJ making Gandalf's FotR comment nonsensical.
The push is there, just not literally.
His motivation changes and development imho make Bilbo a very rich (and much more realistic) character.
He goes through stages I can clearly relate to - repulsion at first, but with a growing feeling inside that this might not be the worst thing to do for him... than a decision against it all only to be confronted with feelings of regret and fear of having made the wrong decision. And the feeling that he can only find out if he just runs out that door. But with every set-back the doubts and fears come creeping back... as the character grows, however, they do not lead to a total repulsion of the quest anymore.
On a much less epic scale I am sure many people here and elsewhere went through similar stages regarding a certain decision.
One that comes to mind immediately imho is the decision to leave a country and move abroad. I went through exactly the same stages, to be honest.
Especially the scene when Bilbo stands alone in Bag-end and changes his mind struck a chord with me. I felt exactly the same when I had already decided against moving abroad... and then decided very quickly that I actually should try it. Though growing into it quickly, natural problems at the beginning of living in a new country brought doubts and sometimes also the question "isn't this all a big mistake?". But one grew into it and even started to love it (also that one tends to see everything in much nicer colors afterwards is something many people do and what also seems to happen to Bilbo, thinking about how he seems to pass on his stroies to Frodo and others).
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Jul 23 2014, 8:52am)
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greenbalrog
Bree
Jul 23 2014, 11:21am
Post #7 of 19
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I think it's clear, for me at least, but subtle at the same time
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Bilbo is a different hobbit, like Frodo, in a way. "He's a Baggins, not some etc, etc normal hobbit ....". You get the point.
So, while the Hobbits all share the love for food, drink, smoke, home and peace, our Baggins' hobbits have more to them than meets the eye.
Bilbo doesn't want to go in the quest, and he's quite upset about the dwarfs and Gandalf entering his life. But, while he's afraid of going in the quest (e.g. dragon) and doesn't want to leave his house, he's also very curious. Mixed with a sense of compassion for the dwarfs, and possibly with (speculation starts here) some sense of boredom (speculation ends here), after all, he does live alone and his days seem to always be the same, he decides to take the job (on impulse, remember that, it's important). Also, the hobbit's natural naiveness and optimism blind him for the perils that such a quest may bring.
I would agree that his motivation is much of an impulse, an eagerness for something different and big to happen in his life. A desire for adventure.
But then, things start to cement.
I think seeing and being at Rivendell with the Elves changed him. All that beauty and dignity gave him a higher sense of purpose. He realized how important the quest really was.
Then, the talk in the Misty Mountains about the dwarfs not having a home accentuated his compassionate and honorable feelings even more.
The camaraderie increased scene by scene, and reached a climax after the end of AUJ. After that, there was no turning back.
tl;dr
I'm ok with Bilbo's motivations to go on a fantastic quest even if that means leaving the comfort of home and face unknown perils. In his heart he believes that he will come back. He's a different hobbit, one that is perhaps more honorable, more curious, more adventurous. A different (perhaps higher) type of hobbit. I don't know the Baggin's and Took's story, but I get that Bilbo and Frodo descend from some kind of Hobbit royalty, or something like that. Bilbo decides to join by impulse. Perhaps also under some "spell" from Gandalf. After all, he said that he never doubted him ;) Then, he got too involved emotionally to leave, and here we are.
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Noria
Gondor
Jul 23 2014, 12:47pm
Post #8 of 19
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I too don’t agree but this is a great topic.
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In fact, I think Bilbo’s motivation for going on the trip is pretty clear and pretty similar to the book reasons: a latent desire for adventure. In the movies that evolves into a desire to help the Dwarves regain their home.
Like the others who responded to the OP, I think that once the adrenaline rush of leaving wears off and the realities of journeying in the wild sink in, Bilbo has second thoughts. Thorin’s disdainful attitude fuels those thoughts. However Bilbo has signed the contract and agreed to go so he perseveres, even leaving Rivendell. But Thorin’s angry words after he himself almost dies rescuing Bilbo from near death are the last straw; Bilbo had come close to death himself and probably feeling humilaited, unappreciated and miffed, decides to leave. Then comes the capture by the Goblins and a change of heart. Bilbo’s aborted fight with the Goblin and especially the encounter with Gollum give him confidence and courage. He isn't entirely lying when he told Gandalf he found his courage in the Goblin caves.
So I think that when he hears Thorin’s speech about Bilbo having abandoned the party and left for home, he makes the decision to prove him wrong, to help the Dwarves right the wrong that has been done them.
Thanks for bringing this up as it spurred me to clarify my thoughts on this aspect.
Welcome to TORN. Are you a fellow Canadian and CBC watcher?
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NamoMandos
The Shire
Jul 23 2014, 1:18pm
Post #9 of 19
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from everyone who has responded thus far. I think I'm getting a clearer picture of some of the things going on underneath the surface of the film, and yes indeed, many of the observations that have been made certainly can be inferred from the film. I suppose my wish is that PJ would have managed to bring out these various aspects of Bilbo's motivation (so well-explained in your above posts) much more clearly and directly, and without as much need for inference. Of course, inference is a valuable storytelling tool, and can be used to help the audience engage in the story on a deeper level. However, IMO, I think what's going on here is that the audience is being forced to rely on it too much in order to understand Bilbo’s motivation at various points of the film. I wish that the script had made it much clearer.
On a related, and kind of interesting note, something similar can be said for the dwarves (excepting Thorin). In the year or so leading up to AUJ, the studio released all of those great character photos of the dwarves, along with a few lines of backstory for each of them, highlighting their own motives for the quest. As cool as this was, I think it’s a real shame that these motives/backstory were not played out on screen. Hence, the problem of trying to flesh out the characters of the 13 dwarves – beyond perhaps a few of them, we have no real sense of the specific hopes/fears driving each of them on their journey (aside from the general desire for their homeland).
And yes, Noria, I am indeed a Canadian and CBC listener – frequently enjoy it on my drive home from work J
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jul 23 2014, 1:45pm
Post #10 of 19
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To me it's obvious - Bilbo's hanging there, too afraid to grab anyone's hand, so Thorin "majestically" jumps down to boost him up, only to slip and nearly fall himself! So when Dwalin pulls him to safety, Thorin lashes out at the Hobbit. I think the scene where Thorin overhears Bilbo's conversation and Bofur's saying "We don't belong anywhere," the look in his eyes is one of regret. Maybe he's even a little jealous of Bilbo for having a home to return to. Technically the dwarves have a "place" in the Blue Mountains, but it isn't "home," not to Thorin anyway.
I've never had an issue with his change of heart at Bag End. At first he was happy that the dwarves were gone, but then the place was quiet, and he realized he may be missing something. The bigger thing is when Bilbo escapes from Gollum, goes running back to the dwarves only to hear Thorin's complaints again, about the "soft bed and warm hearth." He was invisible, why not leave? I think in a way it was to show up Thorin, but also because clearly some of the dwarves had come to mean something to him. Remember in Laketown when he was the only one who asked about Bofur? I think he and Bofur became close, probably Kili & Fili as well. He WAS part of the Company, whether Thorin liked it or not.
I admit that when I first saw AUJ in the theater I was not quite as thrilled with it as FOTR - but then again, I'm such a "Ringer" that I'm not sure anything will. Anyway, I got AUJ for my birthday when it came out on DVD, and I'm sure my daughter regrets that - I've watched it SO many times, went to see DOS 5 times in the theater, so I guess I'm hooked! (Thorin might have something to do with it, LOL! )
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jul 23 2014, 1:47pm
Post #11 of 19
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Yeah, it's especially difficult to learn a backstory from the dwarves that don't have any lines!
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jul 23 2014, 2:17pm
Post #12 of 19
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ONLy Thorin, Balin & Dwalin have
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have been in EREBOR
before..
SOoo the rest of the " Company"
...
Including Bilbo
ARE in this QUEST
for the First Time?
(This post was edited by Bombadil on Jul 23 2014, 2:18pm)
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NamoMandos
The Shire
Jul 23 2014, 2:40pm
Post #13 of 19
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I've been doing some thinking...
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...and I certainly see and understand all of the points that have been made. Bilbo's motivation can indeed be inferred from various scenes, moments, etc. in AUJ. However, I guess my problem, as stated before, is that PJ seems to be relying too heavily on the audience's inferences in order to shore up what I believe to be a weak screenplay. Christopher Nolan's The Prestige is an example of a film that uses inference to great effect, IMO. And by the end of the film, all of the audience's guesses have either been confirmed or denied (or turned on their head) - but Nolan very intentionally makes key plot points and character motivations hinge on inference, UNTIL the big reveal.
I suppose the best way to summarize this is as follows:
1. Using inference intentionally in order to string the audience along and increase their investment in the story = good filmmaking
2. Being forced to rely on the audience's inferences in order to cover for a weak script that doesn't properly address the issue of character motivation = poor filmmaking
This is, IMO, the main problem. But again, I certainly do see your points and agree with what you say.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 23 2014, 4:25pm
Post #14 of 19
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IMO it's incredibly difficult, even for an experienced writer, filmmaker, artist, to know what HAS to be spelled out, what can be inferred by most, and how each and every person is going to interpret a given scene or the presentation of a a given character. Or what might "bother" one person, and not the next.
So with AUJ, using Thorin's anger remark towards Bilbo as an example - yes, IMO it would have been better if there had been some sort of moment showing a fussy or whining Bilbo on the road that gets on the nerves of the warrior dwarves. But, since Thorin's attitude towards Bilbo had been well-established at Bag End, it did not seem out of character at all for Thorin to be angry and dismissive, especially after nearly falling to his own death. I had to infer from Thorin's words that along the way, Bilbo has probably been tripping over himself in some manner, not accustomed to "the wild". But that wasn't a difficult inference to make, especially in that Bilbo - and this is a small thing but to me it's telling as a character - remains in his natty hobbit clothes even as they get destroyed around him. E.g., along the way I'm sure the dwarves would have put some animal skins or whatever on Bilbo, if he had asked. But Bilbo even keeps his little neck scarf on. There was also that moment when Bilbo says "I have never used a sword in all my life."
For me I would not describe these movies as having weak screenplays, in that I've been fascinated as the writers draw all the threads of the story they are spinning together (and am even more appreciative after reading the WETA books and understanding how decisions were influenced by Tolkien and other literature and cultures).
But rather, would I have done this or that, telling the same story? For instance, we know there were scenes at Bag End that flesh out the character of the dwarves that are mentioned in the WETA books. But at some point the decision was made to cut those. Yet I still feel when the dwarves leave Bag End, I've got a good sense of who they are.
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Jul 24 2014, 3:51am
Post #16 of 19
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I think Thorin is also harboring some anger at Bilbo out of pride...
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...because Bilbo shared a very vulnerable moment with him in Rivendell when they overheard Gandalf and Elrond discussing Thror and Thrain's madness (and Thorin's likely susceptibility to it as well). This just adds to Thorin's antagonism towards this Hobbit who he feels isn't up to the task of being on the quest.
Likewise, it's this shared moment which also prompts Bilbo's wanting to return to Rivendell. He feels all the more shunned by Thorin in light of what he surely felt was a bonding moment of sorts between the two (and which I believe, in fact, prompted him to not initially take Elrond up on his offer to stay).
The Bilbo-Thorin arc is my favorite thing about An Unexpected Journey, though I personally didn't feel like it really came alive until the Extended Edition. I think it was beautifully done, and some of the trio's best script writing.
"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen
(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Jul 24 2014, 3:54am)
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 25 2014, 12:13am
Post #17 of 19
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I think Thorin is also harboring some anger at Bilbo out of pride
Too true - of all "people" to be overhearing something like that. Thank you for mentioning! Plus, there's that scene where they are leaving, and Thorin sees Bilbo looking back at Rivendell - such a small moment, but I could interpolate volumes from it, e.g. that Thorin who evidently kept himself isolated *cough* - Thorin sure wasn't jumping into fountains probably noticed Bilbo enjoying Rivendell quite a lot, which wouldn't go over too well.
I believe Thorin to be a complex "guy" too. And a great leader, in that he'll take care of "his" company e.g. saving Bilbo - and on the one hand he's resentful of being saddled with this innocuous hobbit, and on the other hand after the goblin tunnels I've always interpreted Thorin's outright anger at not just contempt for the "soft one" who bailed, but at the same time anger over one of "his" company leaving at all! Or at least, that's how it felt to me.
The Thorin-Bilbo arc is one of my favorite things about this whole trilogy - two superb actors handling these complex nuances beautifully. Agree, superb script (and delivery) as well. And OK, watching the poisoning of that relationship is going to break my heart.
As I recall there's a pretty tough scene in the book, and RA has alluded to it - if they use that it will be hard to watch.
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Jul 25 2014, 12:52am
Post #18 of 19
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...is such a pivotal moment in Bilbo's character arc as well. As opposed to the impulsive decision he made to leave Bag End, this is Bilbo deciding, with a clear head, to not stay behind and instead to follow the dwarves. It's short-lived, as Thorin's outright rejection of him sends him into a tailspin and prompts him to reconsider Elrond's offer - but it is, nonetheless, an incredibly brave moment. It's a key piece of character development that I feel the film suffered from not having in the Theatrical Cut (the moment itself is there, just not the proper context).
Going back to Thorin and Bilbo overhearing the Gandalf-Elrond conversation, this is also a key piece of subtext in Bilbo's speech near the end of the film. When Bilbo stands there saying "...and that's why I came back. Because you don't have a home. It was taken from you. But I will help you take it back if I can". He's speaking to the full company, but he's also speaking directly to Thorin. He knows the danger that awaits Thorin beyond just confronting the Dragon. But he is willing stick by him. He's pledging not only his loyalty but his moral support, as it were. There's that look between the two in that moment - a shared understanding. You can see Thorin completely humbled in that moment.
So much of this is done through subtlety and inference, yes. But that's what you're able to accomplish when you have great scriptwriting and phenomenal actors. It's much better than blatantly stating things through ham-fisted dialogue.
"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen
(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Jul 25 2014, 12:53am)
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 26 2014, 6:27pm
Post #19 of 19
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Going back to Thorin and Bilbo overhearing the Gandalf-Elrond conversation, this is also a key piece of subtext in Bilbo's speech near the end of the film. When Bilbo stands there saying "...and that's why I came back. Because you don't have a home. It was taken from you. But I will help you take it back if I can". He's speaking to the full company, but he's also speaking directly to Thorin. He knows the danger that awaits Thorin beyond just confronting the Dragon. But he is willing stick by him. He's pledging not only his loyalty but his moral support, as it were. There's that look between the two in that moment - a shared understanding. You can see Thorin completely humbled in that moment.
Love this. Excellent observation IMO, thank you. And that's a favorite moment for me, Bilbo standing up to the bitter (justifiably) and angry Mountain King.
So much of this is done through subtlety and inference, yes. But that's what you're able to accomplish when you have great scriptwriting and phenomenal actors. It's much better than blatantly stating things through ham-fisted dialogue.
Totally and completely agree here. And often I find myself going back over the films in my head, and REALLY understanding how great the scripts really are - and savoring that. Since I love to read and ergo love what power words can have, it's often in just replaying the lines in my mind I realize how perfect the scripts really are. Nothing under-said or over-said. And thankfully superb actors in key roles who can deliver those lines.
This thread got me so inspired, actually, that I just HAD to re-watch AUJ last night. And I kept thinking, between DOS and BOFA, I forget how wonderful AUJ is - as many times as I've seen in, the sheer charm of Gandalf's arrival, the arrival of the dwarves, the Bag End scenes, the chases, the eagles, the ending scenes. What a treasure AUJ is and will always be . LOL of course I'll watch DOS tonight *grins* .
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